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Once arrest warrants are issued for the German government and intelligence officials involved in the al-Masri affair, I'll take that case a bit more seriously. Until then, they're just tilting at windmills.

there's another good one in WP today by david rivkin and lee casey :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/27/AR2007022701160.html

to prove that i am not one-sided, check this out and see if you don't find yourself wanting to poke this guy in the eye with a sharp stick:

http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20070227-084730-5162r.htm

to clear something up:

WP article today = good
WT article today = crazy

Paul Belien is a psycho who is now spreading this ridiculous homeschool saga - which has until now been relegated to right-wing blogs - to national news. The primary problem with this piece is it is factually incorrect, and misleading. It is full of transparent half-truths (connecting schulpflicht laws to adolf hitler), lack of context (the families are not accurately described, nor was the condition of the main subject in the article), and - quite simply - idiotic and unnecessary slander: "As Hitler knew, Germans tend to obey orders unquestioningly." Regardless of what you think about the German public, this is an extremely insulting and preposterious statement, as would be any similar statement about Americans.

I posted it as an example of anti-Europe commentary in the U.S. press, which, although it is far less prevalent than anti-US commentary in German/European press, is no less stupid.

Paul Belien has a reputation as an idiot, and for good reason. He was fired from the WSJ years ago after the facts caught up with one of his baseless rants, and how he continues to get published is beyond me, although the WT is a pretty sleazy paper.

@ jwtkac

Thank you. There was also a fascinating editorial in the NYT today on France by Roger Cohen entitled "France Must Move On". What are your thoughts on that?

@jwtkac

We gather that you consider Belien a psychotic, stupid idiot and consider the editors of the WT sleazy. Beyond that, can you tell us why you think the facts cited in the home schooling article are innacurate? Throw us a bone here. I agree that the article is an instance of an anti-German hit piece in the American media. Statements such as, "As Hitler knew, Germans tend to obey orders unquestioningly," may not be as prevalent in the US media as similar anti-American stereotyping is in the German, but they are just as offensive none the less. However, I'd like to know what facts about the specific cases Belien cites you consider innacurate or misleading, and why.

Paul Belian is a psycho? And also a liar apparently. Since when? And since when is the WT sleazy? I read at a minumum 5 papers per day and frankly I think the WT's news judgement and stable of editorial/opinion writers excellent.

Belian did indeed leave something out of his piece. He and is wife are being investigated by the Belgian authorities for homeschooling their children.

His wife is an elected official from a party I can't recall the name of - once banned for being 'racist' (read anti-Muslim immigration), now reconstituted, very anti-EU.

And Belian has written an excellent book on the history of Belgium, "A Throne in Brussels".

Well was Hitler right or wrong on his assumption?

I dont know jwtac as I am new to this site, but calling the Washington Times a sleazy paper is a big moonbat red flag. The WSJ editorial page and the Washington Times are basically the only two major (U.S.) conservative newspapers in the country and are hated passionately by (U.S.) liberals

Go to Brusselsjournal.com where you can find a link to Paul Belien's links to his sources on the article.

Judge for yourself.

firstly, let me say this, the WT has two things going for it - defense coverage (mostly courtesy of bill gertz) and asia coverage. its commentary is simply terrible, and if you think otherwise than I really have nothing to say to you because we're clearly on different planets. I know PERSONALLY (i will not reveal how, but i will say i have worked with some) several of the regular commentators, and they are the DEFINITION of ideologue.

I didn't expect my above rant (i admit) to be put on the main page, due primarily to my extravagant use of words such as psycho and idiot. i nevertheless defend my statement and will get back later with more info on the particular case of the busekros, why this and other commentaries are not telling the whole story, and how the constant reference to schulpflicht as a nazi law is misleading, among other problems.

If you read this article and do not believe the vitriol-spewing person who wrote it is a psycho then again, you are not part of my audience right now, so don't worry.

p.s. i also read at least 7 (english language) papers a day, in addition to several news-weeklies.

putting the WSJ and WT in the same category is, in my opinion, extremely insulting to the WSJ.

oh and @ joe, way to make any argument you ever want to make about how germans see americans totally irrelevant.

What is missing in the Belien article is the other side of the story. I dug a bit and found a press release of the city of Erlangen:

http://www.erlangen.de/de/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-404/1024_read-11990/

By now a court ruling has transfered the oversight over the kid from the family to the Jugendamt, a step not taken lightly by the courts.

A press release on behalf of the parents may be of interest as well:
http://www.netzwerk-bildungsfreiheit.de/html/pe_erlangen.html

According to this press release the kid is officially thought to suffer from school phobia. In order to treat some variant of this phobia separation from the parents and the family seems to be necessary. The huge number of police men involved is very curious, as for "normal" cases they would not show up in these numbers. I have not seen an explanation for this in any of the sources.

several of the regular commentators, and they are the DEFINITION of ideologue.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I just don't see a problem with it.

oh, another article, which i'm not sure everybody can read, but if someone can get it online and post it, sueddeutsche zeitung has a commentary today by christian wernicke called "Amerikas zaghafte Alliierte" that's pretty good.

a couple quotes:

"Kürzlich griff der US-Präsident ... tief in das Archiv alliierter Glaubenssätze - und holte einen Satz hervor, der als Prinzip vor allem den Deutschen im Kalten Krieg über vier Jahrzehnte hinweg Schutz und Sicherheit garantierte: 'Ein Angriff auf einen ist ein Angriff auf alle.'"

"Weitaus unheimlicher [als die Gefahr von der erwarteten "Frühjahrsoffensive'] ist, wie zwanghaft gelassen viele Europäer auf die ferne Front schauen. Franzosen, Italiener und ja, auch die Deutschen tun so, als ginge es sie wenig bis nichts an, wenn demnächst erneut Kanadier, Niederländer oder Amerikaner in den Hügeln vor Kandahar oder nahe Lashkar unter Feuer stehen....Eine für alle, alle für einen?"

ok gotta run..

"I read at a minumum 5 papers per day and frankly I think the WT's news judgement and stable of editorial/opinion writers excellent."

"p.s. i also read at least 7 (english language) papers a day, in addition to several news-weeklies."

I personally read 10 english language papers a day just to keep up with the latest on Anna Nicole Smith alone. TOP THAT!!

Basically, for the Euro readers here is the run down for U.S. media lest you be misled:

Major Liberal - (Socialist, Big Government):

NY Times
Washington Post
99% of the rest of the smaller papers in the country
All the major t.v. news networks save Fox News which features both Liberal and Conservative commentary, but because it has conservative commentary is pillored.

Major Conservative - (Capitalist, Small Government):

Wall Street Journal Editorial Staff
Washington Times

Major Liberal Blogs:

DailyKos
DemocraticUnderground

Major Conservative Blogs:

AmericanThinker
Townhall (strongly recommend reading Thomas Sowell columns)
LittleGreenFootballs

@pamela the problem is that ideologues are the root of all evil, everywhere, throughout history.

wait wait, define "major" .. WT has a tiny readership - it's not even one of the country's 100 largest papers.. plus it loses money every year.

Here is Melissa's psychiatric evaluation (English).

On first read it sounds like something from the USSR gulag days.

What I forgot to mention from the city's press release: The kid is old enough to be no longer subject to mandatory schooling; the issue is not over schooling, but over her
well-being. The case has been reviewed, the actions taken by the Jugendamt were found to be appropriate, the Jugendamt was required by law to act the way it has.


Addendum to my earlier post. LittleGreenfootballs isnt really conservative per se, its more pro-Israel, anti-Islamofacisim in its focus. However, the message boards are majority conservative.

Major = Nationally known paper with Conservative bent. They're arent many and they have small circulations.

One interesting note is while almost all U.S. newspapers are losing subscribers, the Washington Times is gaining them.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2005/05/washington_times_circulation_growing/

(BTW, I dont read the Washington Times) The only paper newspaper I read is the Chicago Tribune. I get most of my info online from a variety of sources.

@blue

"What is missing in the Belien article is the other side of the story. I dug a bit and found a press release of the city of Erlangen:

"http://www.erlangen.de/de/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-404/1024_read-11990/

"By now a court ruling has transfered the oversight over the kid from the family to the Jugendamt, a step not taken lightly by the courts.

"A press release on behalf of the parents may be of interest as well:
http://www.netzwerk-bildungsfreiheit.de/html/pe_erlangen.htm"

Interesting articles. "Schulphobie" cited as a reason to traumatize a 15 year old by forcibly removing her from her home? I wonder when "Schulphobie" became a universally accepted and well-defined psychosis, and how the responsible authorities acquired their expertise in this particular "phobia." Of course, I don't have nearly enough information on the case to claim an informed opinion, but based on your two links, it seems to me the burden is on the authorities to explain why this is anything other than a case of state kidnapping. It would seem that kind of information should have been included in your first link, but, evidently, the responsible authorities felt no pressing need to explain the actual reasons for such a drastic step as forcibly removing a child from her family, other than such rather vague pronouncements as, "Das Familiengericht ist der Überzeugung, dass der Verbleib des Mädchens in der derzeitigen Einrichtung für das Kindeswohl bis auf weiteres dringend erforderlich ist."

In general, it seems to me that parents should be given the benefit of the doubt over the state when it comes to deciding what is in the best interests of their children. The idea that forcibly seizing a child can be justified by reference to some such psycho-babble bullshit term as "Schulphobie" leaves me shaking my head.

@Pamela

From your link:

"Melissa Busekros was examined by us. She has a childhood emotional disorder, severe school phobia and an oppositional denial-syndrome. Melissa lacks insight into her illness and the need for treatment, and considers herself healthy and her behaviour fully normal. M. needs urgent help in a closed setting if need be, and subsequent special education treatment to ensure schooling."

What utter hogwash! It reads like a transcript of the Salem witchcraft trials. Your diagnosis of Gulag psychology is right on. This sentence in the "Opinion" is particularly telling:

"By reason of the severe school refusal, the emotional disturbance and the parents' hitherto insufficient willingness to cooperate, a basic reorientation in a special education facility / group home is urgently required in order to avoid danger to the further development."

Translation: "Be a good serf and do as you're told, or the state will take vengeance by kidnapping your children."


oppositional denial-syndrome

That means she isn't showing the proper respect for authority.

I'm on Melissa's side. I had the same thing when I was her age. But fortunately for me I got thrown out of school for it.

It is my impression that the term "Schulphobie" is misleading to the layman. I did not know what to make of it and looked for explanations. Found this one (sorry, German), the problem seems to be less with school itself, but to be rooted with the parents and the child:
http://www.wdr.de/tv/service/familie/inhalt/20040204/b_4.phtml

I'll translate a relevant part (with a little help from google for speed) :

Many children suffering from school phobia reported a good and intimate relationship to their parents. People at home strived to set them up to a good start in the life: Kindergardens, schools and leisure activities were selected judiciously, driving long distances are willingly accepted where necessary. The child should not have to bother with the harsh outside world.

The parents try to treat their child as a partner. Rules are negotiated depending upon situation, they are not fixed. Good performnce is expected, but parents are trying not to put the child under pressure. Rather the parents try to bolster the self-confidence of the child by stong, in order to make it a certainty: You are good.

What sounds like ideal education at first sight, can at times lead to an unintentional isolation of the child. Being constantly encouraged and praised without proper cause, the child develops a develops a completely superelevated self picture: It feels itself as a Jack of all trades and demands to be the boss or the little king, even outside the family.

At the same time it places high demands on itself. As it is absolutely certain to be the best, or at the very minimum to be way above average, the child will take any criticism or less than good grade as a deeply insulting defeat and offense. As the child gets almost anything at home without any struggle, it is unwilling and unable to engage in fights over rank, as they are constantly and carried out at school or with children of the same age. The The understanding parents' house offers the ideal place for the retreat from a nasty and mean world.

If - and I want to stress the if - the child in Erlangen suffers form this, the therapy could well be in order. This does not come out on the psychiatric evaluation, not sure whether this is the only one that was done.

I do not think that the support group did the child a favor by dragging everything into the public (especially the psychiatric evaluation). I am on the other hand astonished, that the city of Erlangen issued the press release at all. The Jugendamt is usually required to keep silent about cases because of privacy considerations. Maybe they have foregone that consideration as all the data had been released to the public already from the parents side already.

the therapy could well be in order

This isn't therapy, blue. It's state sanctioned kidnapping for the sole purpose of brain washing.

@blue

"If - and I want to stress the if - the child in Erlangen suffers form this ("Schulphobie), the therapy could well be in order. This does not come out on the psychiatric evaluation, not sure whether this is the only one that was done."

Nonsense! What "this" are you talking about? Just think about it for a moment. Is it even possible for "Schulphobie" to be anything other than a subjective judgment of fallible human beings? Through what evolutionary process did "Schulphobie" come into being as a real malady of human beings, keeping in mind the fact that the very existence of schools occurred relatively recently in the history of the species? We have only a very rudimentary understanding of how the brain works at all. We are flailing in the dark when it comes to grasping the nature of such fundamental phenomena as consciousness, predispositions, and the role of reasoning in our thought processes, yet you suggest that we, based on pure faith in some flatulent psychologists pronouncements about "Schulphobie," acquiece in the seizure of a child from its parents.

For that matter, what "therapy" are you talking about? What a fine "therapy," that begins by teaching a child that unknown enemies of its parents can come at any time and take it away to an institution where it will be locked up. We've now had a chance to witness what became of Freud's attempts at "therapy." What sea changes in the world of psychology have suddenly allowed us to have perfect faith that the psychologists (trust them) finally have it right this time, and that, if state authorities seize a child, justifying their act by a need for therapy, that "therapy" will have any effect whatsoever beyond traumatizing the child and imbuing it with a deep suspicion of anything connected with the state?

It's truly scary that you, a relatively rational human being, can even suggest such a thing. In essence, it amounts to a bizarre form of religious belief. Melissa isn't alone. We're all living in an asylum.

Since this thread has been semi-hijacked already, I'll play along.

On the one hand, I'm astounded by this "Melissa" case. If I want to instill self-confidence, pump up my child's self-esteem, and encourage my child to seek and achieve success, it is absolutely nobody's business but mine.

On the other hand, I'm not surprised at all. The reach and arrogance of most governments when it comes to "social" issues knows no bounds.

What I haven't seen mentioned, yet, is what the schools are like in the area that Melissa lives. I know that many schools have significant problems -- sometimes even the teachers don't want to go near them. Might there be a valid reason why Melissa or her parents would want to avoid any of the local schools?

@Joe - "Well was Hitler right or wrong on his assumption?"

Well, everybody is supposed to walk their dogs on a leash here, but most people don´t.

Helian, have you even cared to read the explanation on "Schulphobie" that I translated? "Schulphobie" is not about school, but self image and the basics of social interaction. To recap it in short: Parents cotton pad their child and praise it beyond the blue, being well-meaning but not doing good; due to this "education" the child is unable to function in the real world, as it neither learned to work out conflicts nor got a proper view of its own capabilities. If this is what has happened to Melissa, a separation from her family could be good for her. I do not know - and neither do you - why it was done in this traumatic way, with 15 policemen present, which is decidedly not the norm. If the Jugendamt goes out and takes a child with such a force at hand there must have been a reason for this. This oddity alone tells me that we are still missing a big part of the story.

Yes, taking her away from her parents is drastic and the way it was done was deeply traumatizing. This was not the "therapy", Helian, and you know that. I wish Melissa had been spared this fate. As for my "relative rationality", I have not seen enough information (What is the family like, apart from their self-reporting? Do some of the supporting groups have hidden agendas? Does Belien have one? What are schools like in her neighborhood? Good point, Scott) to be willing to make up my mind on this specific case. I have the luxury of doing so, as my actions and inactions will be of no consequence whatsoever on Melissa. You seem to be happy to make up your mind on basis of one sided and possibly incomplete information, I am not.

@blue

"Helian, have you even cared to read the explanation on "Schulphobie" that I translated? "Schulphobie" is not about school, but self image and the basics of social interaction."

Yes, I read your explanation, and my response was that there is no conceivable way one can justify the forcible removal of a 15 year old girl from the control of her parents into what amounts to a jail, regardless of how the shamen who currently run the psychology racket define the malady. We simply do not understand the human mind well enough to either define the malady with any rigor, or to demonstrate that any form of "therapy" for this "illness" will do any good at all. I know of no 15 year old girl on the planet who could not just as plausibly be diagnosed with "Schulphobie" as Melissa if the authorities were so minded. The idea that some collection of bureaucrats in Nuremberg are capable of making such a judgment is beyond implausible.

"If this is what has happened to Melissa, a separation from her family could be good for her. I do not know - and neither do you - why it was done in this traumatic way, with 15 policemen present, which is decidedly not the norm."

I'm sorry, but I do not agree that the state has the right to kidnap children because someone other than their parents feels it may do them good. I would never acquiece in the state seizure of children by bureaucratic busybodies for any reason other than the imminent danger of physical harm, for the, at least to me, convincing reason that no one has a greater objective interest in the welfare of children than their own parents.

"Yes, taking her away from her parents is drastic and the way it was done was deeply traumatizing. This was not the "therapy", Helian, and you know that."

In fact, it was inseparable from the "therapy," and the "therapy" could not have occurred without it. It was, therefore, most definitely a part of the therapy.

"You seem to be happy to make up your mind on basis of one sided and possibly incomplete information, I am not."

I will be more than happy to admit that I am wrong and that the authorities were right if anyone can show me any convincing evidence that removing Melissa from her family was justified. It seems to me that the burden of proof should not be on me or, for that matter, on the citizens of Germany. The burden rests firmly on the state, and they have not even begun to make a convincing case.

"I do not think that the support group did the child a favor by dragging everything into the public (especially the psychiatric evaluation). I am on the other hand astonished, that the city of Erlangen issued the press release at all. The Jugendamt is usually required to keep silent about cases because of privacy considerations."

I couldn't disagree more. Nothing could concern citizens more directly or intimately than the possibility that the state could simply decide to kidnap their children based on the "diagnosis" of some psychologist. The idea that it's in Melissa's interest or in the interest of any other child to allow the state to cover these incidents up "because of privacy considerations" is so wrong-headed it boggles the mind. It assumes the state is a universally benevolent entity that can, for all practical purposes, do no wrong. Where do you get such ideas? Have you learned nothing from history?

I am normally a sedate man. However, when I hear people rationalizing kidnapping by state goons "because it might be in the child's best interest," I can only suggest they take to heart a suggestion of the New Left of the 60's: "Two, four, six, eight, organize and smash the state."

I cannot imagine that this 'school phobia' is the whole story - there must be much more behind it, as there are better and less drastic ways to deal with such problems and I don't get it at all why the 'Jugendamt' took such actions. On the other hand it might be yet another example for beaurocratic stupidity.
But it can't a problem of schools alone - the other children of the family go to school (and apparently it's a 'happy, nice' family), so there must be some decent ones around?

Remember 2+2 isn't 4 in fact 2+2=5, do you believe me yet? Do you know that 2+2=5? It is necessary that you understand that. The state loves you.

dll, where are you?

I'm in DPC

Criminey, that school phobia describes at least 1/2 of America's little darlings....

--She has a childhood emotional disorder, severe school phobia and an oppositional denial-syndrome. --

I'm not sick, yes you are, no, I'm not....

I feel the need to support Pamela's (always incisive and sagacious) comments here in support of the Washington Times. About the only thing I can think of that rises to the level of a valid criticism of the WT is the fact that it is owned (still, I'm assuming) by Mr. Moonie himself (that is, the estimable Rev. Sun Myung Moon).

Other than that however, I find its consistent support of Israel wonderfully "in the right" as far as I'm concerned -- and I would have thought this "bias" (if I must term it that) was shared by most, if not all the readers of this esteemed blog (which, I might add, I was recently introduced to by my father, "Sagredo").

If someone wants to call rock-solid support of Israel "ideological", well, I guess that doesn't ruffle my "Frumious Feathers" one bit. But then we must likewise apply that same moniker to, say the NY Times' consistent anti-Israel bent as well... right?

In any case, leaving the WT’s laudable support for Israel aside, I still find the Washington Times to be in line with my "neo-con" views for the most part. I suppose I could nit-pick here and there if forced to, but as far as I'm concerned, anyone who dares raise the flag of solid support of Israel and at the same time calls Islamo-fascism for what it is, will always rate highly in my book -- especially given that that view (unfortunately) necessarily puts them at odds with, oh, say about 90% of the other newspapers in this country (the US, I mean).

This being my first comment on this wonderful blog... might I ask if I'm being too "combative" in expressing my view here? (an earnestly posed question)

In the meantime, I will go back to eating falafels ,and resting by the Tumtum tree…

Helian said, "I know of no 15 year old girl on the planet who could not just as plausibly be diagnosed with "Schulphobie" as Melissa if the authorities were so minded."

I agree. As I was reading through her *public* psych profile, I kept thinking, "So, what's her problem?" Not even the "expert" could describe it. To wit:

"2. SPECIFIC DEVELOPMENTAL DISORDERS OF SCHOLASTIC SKILLS:
No test conducted."

"3. DATA ON INTELLECTUAL LEVEL:
No test conducted, at first estimate: Norm-variant of average intelli-
gence."

"4. PHYSICAL SYMPTOMATOLOGY:
None."

Where's the problem?

"She has a childhood emotional disorder, severe school phobia and an oppositional denial-syndrome."

Based on what, exactly?

Here's the only thing actually noted in the report that was "abnormal:"

"5. CURRENT ABNORMAL PSYCHOSOCIAL SITUATIONS:
Abnormal educational conditions"

So,

"...a basic reorientation in a special education facility / group home is urgently required in order to avoid danger to the further development."

Ah, now I see...that should do the trick.

If this was a money issue, rather than a social issue, a cynic could certainly think of other motivations for all of this. Then, there's always the vendetta angle. It just seems to my non-expert mind that the child's own welfare is not the primary concern here...but I could be wrong.

A motto I learned one lovely Autumn when I was about 18 years old seems to fit here: "Be straight, or be gone!"

I won't venture any judgment on Melissa's case without more information. But pulling a child out of the parents' home and placing the child in custodial care of the state is an extreme step unless the child's welfare clearly warrants it. I'd welcome more media attention to Melissa's fate.

That Germany's civil servants occasionally act in absurd and arbitrary ways is well-known and a common complaint heard from Germans themselves. I can well imagine that injustice has been done to Melissa and her family.

However, there are statements in Belian's op-ed that I find highly objectionable, above all: "As Hitler knew, Germans tend to obey orders unquestioningly." If this isn't a bigoted generalization, then what is? This is the kind of statement I, as an American residing in Germany, hear from Germans and read in the German press about Americans.

In effect, Belian is saying that all Germans are still incorrigible Nazis. Nonsense. By drawing that parallel, he makes it hard to assess his argument against compulsory schooling on its own merits.

By the way, if European Muslims could establish their own schools and what is taught in them independently of the state, consider the outcome.

Paul B. responds

Let me say two things:

(1) I was never fired from the Wall Street Journal. I was fired from the Belgian newspaper Gazet van Antwerpen for writing an article in the WSJ which the GvA had spiked but later proved to be correct. When I was fired the WSJ wrote an editorial defending me.

WSJ editorial

Well, that's all fine, but in democracies important issues are subjected to public debate. Newspapers in democracies have a public trust to responsibly further such debates. The festering hostility between Belgium's Flemish and Walloons is not going to go away simply because it is kept in a dark corner.

Belgium's king was wise enough to know that. So, in our view, was Mr. Belien. Most of all, however, he wanted simply to be a good journalist. He is not the first reporter to have been punished for that crime.



I should point out that the WSJ editorial is at the bottom of the link, following Belian's explanation of the events leading up to his termination.

Marisa,

Thank you for your answer.

It would appear at least on some level Hitler assertion would be wrong today.


This commentary from the Nurnburger Nachrichten gives us an idea of the kind of thinking that leads to things like the "Melissa" episode. This line is especially telling:

"So wenig, wie Kinder dem Staat gehören, gehören sie den Eltern."

Which translates (I think) to:

"Children do not belong to their parents any more than they do to the state."

And, apparently in this world view, the state has "seniority."

"Paul Belien has a reputation as an idiot, and for good reason. He was fired from the WSJ years ago after the facts caught up with one of his baseless rants, and how he continues to get published is beyond me, although the WT is a pretty sleazy paper."

I think now that the facts have come out, jwtkac's veracity should be taken with a grain of salt.

It is interesting how the germans have managed to change the topic not from the realities of their lack of support for NATO or their own governmental hypocrisy about this which is a reflection of not only the thoughts of their elites but of their fellow citizens to a discussion on some perceived slight to their national honor, culture and heritage because of an article about home schooling.

And we're sensitive.....

Suck it up, we're supposed to.

@dll2000
I think now that the facts have come out, jwtkac's veracity should be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't think there's any need to go that far. Yet. If you look at the dates when this happened, it was almost 20 yrs ago. Memories can be faulty.

Altho I am look forward to jwtkac's return for a discussion of all evil coming from ideologues.

/locks, loads, adjusts scope

Pamela,

I sure your exchange will be quite entertaining. While practicing your breathing and trigger squeeze you might find the below link interesting.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/28218/america-youll-miss-it-when-its-gone.thtml

I tend to agree with this assessment from observing the current campaign. The only problem with this is our current commitment to NATO. Hopefully we will see some event which will cause this to unwind. I believe at the center of this event will be france and Germany and the other members of the chocolate summit.


Also remember - one shot - one kill

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