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Ray/David/German readers, how is this story playing with the German poulation? It didn't seem to be very high profile when it broke, at least internationally. Did it get more play in Germany early August, is it a high profile story now, what approach is the German media taking, and what is the domestic response? Thanks for any insight.

Note from David: It's on the top of the evening news at all tv stations. Hard to predict how the population or the media will react. My guess is there will be few emotions or consequences unless a terrorist act of this type will actually "succeed".

Darnit, Ray, why did you have to beat me to the punch? I was going to point out how this was obviously punishment for Gerhard Schröder's illegal war in Iraq. :-)

(Then again, maybe the Russian Mafia would plant bombs if Schröder didn't give them a cut on the pipeline....)

Tom Penn,
we live next city. The regional newspaper WAZ had 1 or 2 articles for some days. They reported about Israel on 1 to 3 pages! That was more important. Editorials, backgrounds, back and forth, up and down, Israel all over, opinions, commentaries, no facts. As usual.

Or, you could all be wrong and the people of Germany might decide that Israel and Zionist agression are to blame for the legitimate anger that led to this attempt at mass murder. Why should the life of one German citizen be placed at risk because of what the Jews are doing in Lebanon? Should the German people stand up against the troublemakers in Israel? Many people think that would be one obvious way to insure the safety of German citizens. Stop Israel, and Germany will be safe from attacks by Muslims.

Yes, it's all the Jew's fault. Where have I heard that before?

You've heard it from too many sources to count. You're hearing it now, and not just here. This is the moment when the people of Europe - not only Germany - decide where they stand. We have already seen what France thinks of the situation. Now how about the rest of Europe? The citizens of Spain voted to stand down at their last election, but they will send some form of support to Lebanon now. The citizens of Germany, fortunately, did not vote to back down at their own recent election. What will they do now?

Even though the official version says that the UN force is there to help Lebanon, the only logical conclusion is that the UN force is really there to be, at the very least, a barrier between Israel and Hezbollah. So there are two choices: Are they there to defend Lebanon against Israel? Alternatively, if they lift even one finger against Hezbollah, this will be a de facto defense of Israel.

We will see where Germany stands, as well as the rest of Europe and the UN. Considering the current motley crew who have volunteered their services, this could easily go either way.

David Preiser,
I think you missed my point, let me try again. Your belief that Israeli actions cause muslims to blow up German trains is absurd and contemptible. Where is the logic in your assertion?
Why do Islamonutters want to kill you? Not because they hate "our freedoms". Not because of U.S. or Israel's "unjust foreign policy". They seek to kill you, David Preiser, because you are an infidel. Plain and simple.
If Israel disappeared tomorrow, they would still try to kill you. Because you're an infidel.

I noticed this story in the German news the day the bombs were found - it got a steady amount of coverage in Germany since then. It's getting more now internationally since they now have photos of the people who left the bags (check F.A.Z.), and it seems more likely that it was a terrorist plot instead of just some crazy individual. I didn’t see the story, even on BBC, outside of Germany until early today, which struck me as unusual (this happened almost 3 weeks ago). It makes me wonder if Germany requested papers not to run it.

Anyway, the big debates seem to be over the idea of increasing security (more cameras and such) in the stations (Germany already has so much security in the way of such things that I've always found it somewhat weird that some people are so hypercritical of the US in this regard). There have been a string of conspiracy theories, everything from the government planting the bombs as an excuse to increase surveillance, to Mossad planted them to influence Germany's stance concerning the Israel/Lebanon war. Most people seem to be taking it seriously though at face value and don't mind/protest the extra precautions.

David, Ray and others thanks for the responses to my questions.

Jesse, "I didn’t see the story, even on BBC, outside of Germany until early today, which struck me as unusual (this happened almost 3 weeks ago). It makes me wonder if Germany requested papers not to run it."

I saw a very brief story in Speigel international on August 1 or 2 and nothing since. I also wonder why and how this story appears to have been so successfully buried internationally. Perhaps it was just buried by the war.

David P, I don't understand the logic of that argument. How could one justify blaming Jews for Islamists blowing people up in Dortmund and Koblenz, or even Casablanca, Madrid, London, Kuta, Karachi, New York, Nairobi, Dar es Saalam, Riyadh, Taba, Luxor, Bombay, Moscow, Beslan, Amman, Istanbul, not to mention the ethnic (religious) clensing and expansion by violence and oppression from Africa to India to parts of Europe?

Could it possibly be that Islam is a violent expansionist ideology? After all, Islamists are not just targeting Jews, but also Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, athiests, and OTHER MUSLIMS.

David Preister,
you are spreading the terrorists view and their supporters in our society that there is a reason to kill us. They hate us because ... Read muslim-markt.de "Why we hate you". I don't vare why those hateful people hate me. They are hiding their hatred behind different kind of ideas and it is always soemthing or somebody else. What a nonsense. They cannot blame me for their hatred.

We have to understand their trick. It is all about them and their hatred. They are not able to have good lifes because of themselfes but blame us. So their life looks good to them - filled with hatred, together with other haters (it gives them a warm feeling). But the truth is: they are murderers connected by hate, alive by hate, and they die by their own hate. What poor minded people.

I don't blame me for this.

When I see the dead bodies in Lebanon, I think at once of Dresden in Germany: We have to suffer and bear those pictures. People have to die for peace in the world. There is something bigger in this world than a single life. This I believe deeply. I am sorry for every innocent life. But I am against those haters who misuse their death.

There is no doubt in my mind that when terrorists eventually succeed in killing innocents in Germany, American foreign policy will be to blame in the European press. Obviously, the terrorists were not targeting Germans in particular, but the West in general.

Desertdog,

I have no doubt that you would be correct about your assertion that the European press would blame American foreign policy for a terrorist attack in Germany. For example, some at the BBC blamed America for 9-11.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1552900.stm

Jeff Jarvis at the Buzz Machine is also fed-up with the "blame game".

I have been sick of hearing the meme that British and American foreign policy led to the terrorist plots carried out recently and foiled last week in the U.K. I hear it from Muslims and their leaders quoted in the media. I heard it yesterday in an appalling report on the BBC’s World Service European show, with a reporter leading young people to say that our foreign policy and seeing their “brothers blown up” in Afghanistan led to this (let’s remember who’s really blowing up Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq: Muslims).

http://www.buzzmachine.com/index.php/2006/08/12/the-lie-tying-foreign-policy-to-terrorism/

Should we have any reason to believe that things would be different for future attacks?

@David Preiser: "Or, you could all be wrong and the people of Germany might decide that Israel and Zionist agression are to blame for the legitimate anger that led to this attempt at mass murder..."

How on earth can you sit there and justify this attempt at mass murder as "legitimate anger"??????? That is totally inhuman!

David P: "Stop Israel, and Germany will be safe from attacks by Muslims."

And you, sir, are out of your mind. Others here have already said it, and I will repeat it because it bears repeating until you understand the concept. There are people out there who HATE you because you don't wear a long beard. They hate you because you don't force your wife or daughters to cover their bodies from head to toe. They hate you because you live in a free society and NOT under the thumb of a hateful, vile Imam. They hate you because you think law should be secular instead of religious (Sha'aria) in nature.

In other words, as was said earlier, they hate you because you are an infidel.

And THAT they will never forgive or forget.

Perhaps, just perhaps, a normal civlian in Lebanon, who was just minding his own business, when his entire family (children and wife) was wiped out, might actually have reason to be a tad, well, upset.

I know if I my entire family was murdered, I would want retribution, and those who were responsible would be made to pay. I know Americans didn't keep their heads cool after 9/11, and there's absolutely no reason that Lebanese who lost their childrens lives wouldn't want to see the same happen to those were responsible.

Believe me, the hundereds of families, brothers, sisters, cousins, friends, of the innocent who lost their lives, will NEVER FORGET.

And they should not, and cannot, be expected to.

Delphino, the Lebanese rid themselves of the terrorist proxy army that started a war from their soil and then hid behind women and children.

ha -- left out the "should"

From Wikepedia:

"In Pity the Nation (his book about the Lebanese Civil War), Robert Fisk (when he was still clear in mind) quotes a fellow Times correspondent:

The destruction of Sabra is so great that few not living below ground can have survived. The way in which Amal and the Palestinians fought in the corridors of the hospital for the old in Sabra while the patients were still there indicates that neither side cares too much for civilians caught in crossfire. The way in which the Palestinians build their houses over the bunkers must make civilian casualties inevitable. But they want it both ways. If you ask how many fighters they have they say all Palestinians are fighters, men, women, and children. But then they yell if a woman or child gets killed."

This is what we have to understand. It is still true even when Fisk won't no longer see it (now he is too close to the terrorists, I guess). There are many "families" who are part of the terrorists. And the media is reporting only about civilian victims. They took away the weapons before the journalists are coming. They are not silly but obviously journalists are.

Delphino, they won't forget? Then please tell me why did people forgot the massacre of Hama? 38.000 (25.000 said Fisk) muslims were killed. Any bad feelings about that? Perhaps you haven't heard of it because you are so focussed on Israel?

Did you ever wonder why so many don't know the name of the person who did the Sabra and Shatila massacre. And that there was a second one where Israel wasn't involved. More people died. Nobody noticed. Do you care for the death? Be honest: Did you know about it? Tell those people your big Never Forget.

Gabi, nothing you said negates anything I said. The families involved will not forget, as many of them have said themselves. I wouldn't, and I know no American ever would.

"Robert Fisk (when he was still clear in mind)"

Classic. When his opinion agrees with yours he is sane. When it doesn't, he has gone insane. You are not the standing authority on morality or sanity, Gabi, believe it or not. You and your fellow Republicans are, in fact, far from it.

Also, your Wikipedia article seems to be in need of some sources.

Delphino,
I am not American as my English knowledge shows. So what fellow Republicans? Clear in mind means, that he lost the ability to condemn real terror like suicide bombers. You might call it insane. I call it no longer clear in mind. What was the reason for your use of big letters? Think about it.

To All Who Have Responded to My Post:

You can yell at me all you want, and it will change nothing. There is no need to lecture me on the false logic of these assertions. I am well aware of the caveman mentality of Islamo-fascists. I do not believe that Israel is responsible for all our woes. I do not believe that the Islamo-nutters have "legitimate greivances" that justify their attacks on civilians. You must all realize that many of your fellow countrymen - if you live in Germany, France, the UK, Spain, or Italy, for example - actually do believe this. Many of your newspapers and TV news broadcasts give evidence of this (especially if you live in the UK or Italy), as well as numerous polls and comments on the internet. Do you all deny this? Do you deny that even some members of your own parliaments have made statements like this? You all need to lecture your countrymen and media outlets, not me.

We see evidence right now that Europe (never mind the rest of the world) is not exactly willing to do much to help Israel. Look at the ridiculous troop contingent being sent to Lebanon by France, who supposedly was a leader in brokering a cease fire agreement. How many troops will Germany send? Belgium? Italy? Russia? China?

Here are some more important quesitons for all of you: What if - hypothetically, of course - Germany sends troops to Lebanon? They are clearly not there to disarm Hezbollah. Can these UN "peacekeeping" troops lift a finger against Hezbollah if they move to attack Israel? Or, will they take action against Israel if Israeli troops do, well, anything in Lebanon? If they lift one finger against Hezbollah, this will be a de facto defense of Israel. So, I ask you all: if German soldiers are killed in Lebanon, will the citizens of Germany stand for the shedding of German blood to defend Israel? How will the people of other countries act? Spain voted against this sort of thing in their last national election. Do any of you think the citizens of France, Italy or the UK (after Blair steps down, of course) will stand for this? Your fellow citizens vote. Your politicians react to voter desires (when it doesn't affect the politicians' power or bank account, I mean). Can any of you tell me that your fellow citizens will allow this for very long?

While the one student that was caught said he was doing it for revenge, he did it for another reason that might need to be explained. Revenge is enough for most men to hate, but not for most to actually try to kill hundreds of innocent people. It is only possible for this young student because of his religion, Islam.

Islam is the religion that worships death and destruction. That allows no other religion and allows that infidels are to be either subjugated, converted or killed.

That is the reason for this attack, without it, the wish for revenge would have gone no further than his mind. Possibly if he had not been Muslim he would have joined the Lebonese Army to fight Israel at a later date, but that is bending the laws of probability.

The cult of Islam is our enemy, Muslims are only it's tools.

Papa Ray

OK, David P, let's try this one more time.

Yes, it's true that there are Muslim fanatics who think that blowing up a German train is "revenge" for the Israeli action in Lebanon.

However, we do not accept that explanation. Period. It is an explanation, not a reason or an excuse. And it probably does NOT cut to the heart of the matter... in other words, it's most likely what my generation used to call a "cop out".

The heart of the matter is this: What on earth does Germany have to do with Israel, at any time, any place? Nothing. That puts the lie to the "explanation".

So there is something else at the bottom of the terrorism, something that has nothing to do with Israel or any other nation.

And that "something" is terrorism for its own sake... to reestablish the Caliphite. To show "power" over the infidels.

This has nothing to do with Israel, it has to do with the ongoing (since WWI) attempt to reestablish the Ottoman Empire.

Papa Ray,

In your haste to lecture me you seem to have missed something I said: I agree with you on all this. However, that is entirely beside the point. When I made my first post about the alternative position that people could just blame Israel for this, I wanted to find out if anyone would admit that this was one possible way for the general public to react. I am trying to find out if anyone here who has ranted about how "they want to kill us because we're infidels" actually understands what is going on right now in Germany, the UK, Lebanon and Israel.

Apparently no one wants to think about how the German population will react if Germany actually does send troops to Lebanon, and what would happen if a German soldier dies over there. Nor does anyone care to speculate about what will happen in Britain now that the citizens realize that the recent terrorist plot is tied to Lebanon and the general War on Terror (which the BBC and much of the British populace seem to define as Bush's Imperialist War Against Innocents Blah Blah Blah).

Instead everyone is just doing the usual preaching to the choir. Do you all think that most people in Europe (and a growing number in the US) understand the true caveman nature of Islamo-fascism the way everyone here clearly does? Does no one here care to comment on whether or not British or German citizens will support troops in Lebanon if it becomes clear that they are there to defend against attacks on Israel and not to protect innocent Lebanese?

David Preiser,

don't you know that this weblog represent only a little little minority in Germany. David and Ray and most of the commentators are against the mainstream. That's what they want to change but we are so few. You should know already the answer to your question. And that is why we are all here. Because we don't like the answer.

represents... sorry

Well put, Gabi.

Gabi,

Thank you for the honest reply. Very well said indeed. I was wondering why nobody else would discuss the possibilities I mentioned. I am actually well aware that the media is largely responsible for these negative attitudes. Whenever I watch the BBC, CNN International, or the English-language German world news program I get in New York, I get a good idea "why they hate us". I am no longer surprised that Muslims in Britian or Germany or Spain are perfectly willing to die in order to kill innocent civilians. Not only do they have their religious leaders telling them to do it, but they have the national media of the countries in which they live telling them to hate America and Israel.

I can only imagine what it must be like to be an angry, nihilistic young caveman - Islamus Troglodytes, or Homo Neanderthalus Mohammedus, maybe - living unhappily in a country of infidels, and the national voice of your host country tells you that your hatred is justified. In that context, I definitely understand how he would come to want to kill us.

This is one more reason that we in the US are fortunate to be so large, geographically. Until the last few years, national media have not had the same influence in everyone's daily thoughts because local media is so strong. Local media can be a good buffer against national media voices. In the US, the only time everyone in the country has access to the same news broadcasts on the major national networks is once in the evening. Everything else is local. With cable news and the internet, that has changed, of course. Even so, the only newspaper available to everyone in the country (except for upper-class people who live outside of New York, but get the New York Times and think they're hip) is USA Today. And that publication is fairly light-weight, so it does not have anyhwere near the influence it could. Having said that, it seems to me that, while both the UK and Germany certainly have strong local media, the national media voice has a much, much stronger impact, and reaches much farther than in the US.

David Preiser,

when you live in the US, you get a strong feeling to live in a brave country which is not afraid to fight for the good things in life, then you live in a real world where violence is not bad by definition but sometimes justified against people like Hitler. Even peaceful people understand that some problems in this world need a strong answer. Here in Germany most of the people live the myth that we under Hitler started a war and that should never ever happen again, then we are "good". No more war is their answer and they misunderstand that war can be, can be a method (as part of a strategy) to stop a thread like worldwide terrorism, like a mentality to kill infidels, Jews, Western. That is what is happening right now. The media, who are also people which are under the thread, tries to react correctly, not to create hate against such threads and decided to put the US and Israel between the thread and us. Of course they don't realize how coward this is. Just a moment ago I heard a priest in TV. She is German and lives in Lebanon and described how hisbollah is part of the society, just normal people. They care for the other. In a little sentence she said also, that their "resistance mentality" is dangerous but the moderator ignored this. Hisbollah are just normal people was the result. That reminds me of the question if Hitler was a normal person. Did he look like a monster, could you see his vicious mind? Didn't the Nazis live a normal life? Wasn't this the problem for the world, that everything looked so normal and nice and the 6 millions disappeared and got killed while Germans lived their normal life. It hurts me so much to listen to this BS. Why didn't this priest tell us about the hate, the wish and dream of those people to destroy Israel? She started to talk about that she has discussed with hisbollah people, but the moderator stopped her. So the media helps to create this atmosphere here, hisbollah are normal people, just Israel has a problem with them. They don't tell us the cruel truth. We are the Hampelmänner of the terrorist minded people. Perhaps only until they will kill in Germany. Frightening!

I just saw a picture on LIZAS weblog (great weblog!): God bless Hitler, sign in the hand of a muslim woman. Nazi Deutschland hated the Jews by rassism and the Muslim world hate the Jews in Israel because they live there what they think should be muslim country. Being non Arier and non muslim are similar reasons for killing.

I am no expert, that is just my private opinion.

Gabi,

I think you are 100% correct.

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