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Hey, I have an idea: Why not release them, uh, in the US? I'm sure by now they are accustomed to american hospitality.

typical

Of course, che.ge, you completely miss the point. This is another great example of "Do as I say, not as I do."

Hmm, how's that EU Constitution coming along?

I know a way that might lead us out of this mess:
The german government should accept those prisoners and let them fly to germany. And after they landed, refuel the plane and send em straight to china. This way, no diplomatic damage results out of it, and the chinese will know how to deal with them anyway :)

See, the "problem" is that the Uighurs oppose a Communist anti-American government. The people under Communism have always been written off as non-persons by the Left. Nothing ought to be done that might in some way conceivably "help" America. Even when dealing with a trivial number of people, helping the Uighurs would "help" America by helping anti-communist people. Can't do that. This exposes the hypocrisy of the "caring, compassionate, human rights Lefties". They're none of the above, they're totalitarian thugs.

And herein lies my problem with America's foreign policy establishment, i.e., the State Dept.

Germany is more concerned about offending China than it is the U.S.

As far as the Chinese prisoners are concerned, just keep them at Gitmo. They've safe and harmless there.

Or, return them to China where they will be executed and then we can preen in Berlin about how WE'RE the ones who really don't want to offend China and Germany is as always, a wuss.

I dont think this has anything to do with being a "wuss".

Its more about weighting pros and cons.
On the one hand you got a few prisoners belonging to some unknown minority and thats it. Even IF they were delievered to china and disappeared, noone would notice.
On the other hand, you have a more and more important buisness partner like China. Offending them because of such an unimportant matter is of no actual use.
I mean to be heartless, but our government clearly acts according to its responsibility towards the german people here.

I wanted to say that I DONT mean to be heartless :)

Dave, you are correct. No one can blame Germany ... EXCEPT for the fact that the german politicians and media daily excoriate the US for much less. This just proves the German government really does NOT believe what they have been saying about the US, about GITMO, and they truly believe many of the prisoners there are dangerous and simply don't want them in their country.

That is reasonable, it's the double standard that makes us angry. And the "do as I say, not as I do" ethics of politicians.

I believe England took their citizens back, didn't they? (There were 3 I believe).

As Uigurs they are probably chinese nationals. According to international law it's China's duty to take them back. So why is China not considered?

Yes, Germany does have a long history of acting according to its responsiblity to the German people.

We all know how that works unfortunately.

The US army brought the Uighurs to America, now keep them there or send them back to where they came from.
The last thing Germany needs now are turkish speaking Chinesians.
Most German taxpayers don't even know how to spell "Guantanamo" and they don't care about it.

@JT and not-my-cousin Dave: Are you willing to admit that if the U.S. sent them back to China (where they would probably be executed), you'd be the first ones here screaming your heads off about "illegal rendition flights"?

Cousin Dave

No I wouldn't because honestly I don't care about these Uighurs and whatever happens to them is fine with me. I don't put my nose into things that are not my business. The chinese government considers them to be terrorists, the US government caught them in Taliban Afghanistan and held them in a prision camp for terrorists. These are not the kind of people I want in Germany. If these Uighurs are not dangerous maybe it would be a good idea to bring them back to liberated Afghanistan were they can live in peace and happiness with their muslim brothers .

@J.T.
Do you really think, that in China they would probably be executed? I don't think so. The Chinese are too busy to shoot every fool.
And if yes, who cares?

Hi Folks,

you know what my problem is with this discussion? The US starts a war, for some BS reason, and after a while the stuff hits the fan. And now the story goes like this. Half a century ago western europe was liberated by the US. Good thing, no doubt about that. But because of that, we have to be grateful and clean up after every mess they make today. We can't even critize them. I mean, where is the logic in that? We don't want the Guantanamo guys because there is no label at our country that says "Dumpster" or "Get rid of your political trash here!". We do accept political refugees but since we consider the US a developed country this is not an option.

I think this issue is more complicated than the article makes it out to be. They are US prisoners, so I honestly don't see why other countries should feel compelled to take them regardless of what they think of US policy in this case. I mean, I might not agree with the death penalty, for example, but that doesn't mean I want a bunch of convicted criminals from a state that has it being dropped off in my state either. There are plenty of instances when the German media go out of their way to make Americans look bad (whether they 'mistranslate', straight out lie, explain only part of an issue, or just spread rumors around as if they were facts - That's where I have problems with the German media (It's unfair to the US and its citizens, not good for the Germans either if they just believe everything they see and form opinions based on things that aren't true) - the purely political issues like this aren't really an issue for me though.

Jesse,

okay, so the EVIL german press makes americans look BAD. That is the same logic when W says: Terrorist hate our freedom. Yeah, right. This is baloney! American politics makes the US look bad. The putative terrorists don't hate your freedom, they hate having US troops in their country.

Oh che.ge,

how I would love to have your simple worldview. Things must be very easy for you.
Sure, terrorism is only existing because of the US policy.
Well, life on earth would be so peaceful if the US wouldn't exist, wouldn't it?
Read some books che.ge, especially those with the word History written somewhere on the back.

Cousin Dave

Nobody would cry if they were sent to china. Its the country they belong to, and china seems to know how to deal with them.

And if you are too scared of critical reports when doing this, why not "lose" them over the ocean on their way to europe? You know, "the back door accidently opened and all passengers were allowed to practice their swimming skills". This would probably the most elegant way ;)

Oh, I'm just loving the hypocrisy I'm seeing on this thread. Some of you who are now saying that rendition would be OK, well, you're flat-out lying. You know good and darn well that you'd be screaming your heads off if the U.S. actually did it. So just don't even bother trying to convince me otherwise.

In the U.S. South, we call people like this "agin'ers". These are people who are opposed to everything that everything else does. However, they never do anything themselves, because by not taking any action that can be criticized, they can maintain their high-and-mighty moral superiority. I'm seeing now what Europe's problem is -- it's full of agin'ers. This is one reason why Europe is finding itself increasingly irrelevant in international affairs.

che.ge

actualy, EUROPE is who made the mess in the middle east, splitting up ethnic groups not by historic lines, but by their own selfish desires for oil.

EUROPE is who has screwed up Africa, enslaving them, colonizing them and making a mess of Africa, especially the former French, German, and Belgian colonies.

It seems like most of the problems today are in places EUROPE has historically meddled and interefered.

Cousin Dave,
I agree. I would not support sending anyone back to China. That is one country you don't want to extradite to unless you are certain of the facts and that the person has actually committed a crime that deserves the punishment they'll get. China executes more people both in raw numbers and a percent, than any nation on earth. And that's even after China has stepped down their political executions (for instance, they no longer make Christians "disappear" because it just made the churches more resiliant).

That said, this is nothing new. We have many prisoners from south of our border who have served their time, and we would release them but their governments won't take them back. It is odd how all these countries that criticize the US legal and penal systems, don't want their "innocent" and "framed because they are not white" citizens back. There was a huge riot among these prisoners (I think in the 90s) the FBI HRT was able to stop without bloodshed.

Cousin Dave

Now try to be honest: Would there be one single way I could make you believe what I told you about my opinion? You seem to have too many prejudices man..

I consider it possible that our media might freak out if america sent those prisoners to china and they disappeared afterwards. But I certainly would not.

PlutosDad,

my man, now you are talking. There is hope left in this world. Of course, Europe created lots of problems, we even created problems BEFORE the US existed. That is in the nature of things. And we had and have interest in the middle east. Selfish desire for oil, well, which nation hasn't this problem today. Some more (US), some less (Europe). The most important issue, however, is that you learn from your mistakes. Become a peaceful nation. Use diplomacy. Negotiate.

Of course, the americans had their moments, too. How many native americans did you kill? 20 million? 40 million? Today it is a big issue that the natives don't pay taxes. But did you learn your lesson? No. It is eye by eye. Better you then me.

That reminds me a little bit of palestine. First, the Israelis steal the land from the people that used to live there. Of course, Europe exported this problem, not one of our finest moments. Israel shouldn't be there in the first place. Then they make a big deal out of it giving it back to them.

Well, Che, like a good little leftist, it didn't take long for your anti-Semitic bona fides to come out. If you knew even the slightest bit of the history of how Israel got created, you'd... what am I saying? You don't care how Israel got created, do you? You only care about who you can scapegoat for problems that you and people like you caused. Jews are always a convenient target, aren't they?

@Dave: Okay, I'm going to take you at your word. But remember, you now have an obligation. When the German media engages in anti-Americanism concerning war prisoners, you have an obligation to defend the position you just took.

Cousin Dave,

Yeah, I know, I saw this one coming. It pretty much sums up the whole problem of this website: You can't deal with critique. It is almost like the Germans and Germany have forfeited their right to criticize anything and this apparently for eternity. You'd rather stigmatize people then discuss things openly. But that doesn't help you. I hypothesize this is some strange aspect of oversimplified american patriotism, either you are a friend or an enemy.

The US, in it's roots, is a violent country. Violence is accepted as an adequate measure to solve problems. Somehow you slipped the class where they tought that peaceful coexistence is the key.

Che,

"The US, in it's roots, is a violent country. Violence is accepted as an adequate measure to solve problems. Somehow you slipped the class where they tought that peaceful coexistence is the key."

If there was ever a case of the pot calling the kettle black!

1867 Krieg mit Daenemark

1870 Krieg mit Frankreich

1896 Vernichtung der Heros in SW Afrika.

1898 Kriegsmaterial und Hilfe fuer die Boern gegen England in Sud Afrika.

1998 Kriegsmaterial und Hilfe fuer Spanien gegen die USA und Kuba.

1914 Krieg mit Belgian, Frankreich, England, Russland, Italian,

1917 Krieg mit der USA.

1926 NSAPD Aufstand gegen Bayern und die Weimarrepublik.

1933 Stiftung der Reichstag. Reichstag wird abgeloest.

1935 Ruecknahme der Saarland

1936 Krystalnacht

1937 Luftwaffe bombt Spanien.

1938 Anschluss Oesterreich

1938 Einmarsch Sudetenland; Tchekloslavkei wird abgeloest.

1939 Krieg und Einmarsch mit Poland

1939 Krieg mit England und Frankreich.

1940 Einmarsch Belgian, Holland, Daenemark, Norwegen, Grieschenland, Jugoslavian.

1941 Einmarsch Afrika, Krete.

1941 Einmarsch Sovjietunion.

1961 Aufbau der Berlinermauer.

1961-1989 250 bis 600 Deutsche von DDR Sicherheitstruppen ermordert.

1998 Einmarsch Jugoslavian

1999 Einmarsch Kosovo

2003 Einmarsch Afghanistan.

Thanks, George.

1867 - 1941 = 74 years. 19 incidences.

1961 - 2003 = 62 years. 5 incidences.

I think we're getting there. Lesson learned. Of course, if you'd rather german world domination, I'm sure we can arrange something. (just kiddin...)


1941 - 2003 = 62 years.

I think Germany is not obligied to take the Chinese men, even though with all their talk and their "we are the defenders of peace"-attitude you could expect that. But the fact that they don't even take one of their own citizens (if this is true) back is speaking for itself.


Che,
you forgot to mention the reasons for the reduction in incidences ... such as allied sacrifices that brought down the German dictatorship, German economic success financed by the American Marshall Plan, American influence in Western Germany ...

But I know ... we can't be thankful forever ... is it that what you intend to say next? I recommend you to go tell it a G.I. that saw his friends die on the battlefield 'round Germany in WWII.

CJ,

you see, it is not that we are not thankful. If you would consider the facts you would see that. If we wouldn't be thankful we would close german airspace for US planes like France did during some incidences in the past. The problem is, the US considers europe not as sovereign states or true allies. In your opinion, we are mediocre countries, that you can abuse for your own vision of american hegemony.

Che,

"The problem is, the US considers europe not as sovereign states or true allies. In your opinion, we are mediocre countries, that you can abuse for your own vision of american hegemony."


What would you suggest that we do?

1. Increase our trade deficit with Germany....import more Mercedes and BMWs that get 14 miles per gallon?

2. Pull American companies out of Germany....which have to put up with work laws that are only one step less ridiculous than that of France?

3. Make your people get cumbersome tourist visas....like the rest of the world...when you visit the USA.

4. Allow you to grandstand and make fools of us in front of the UN security council.....ooops, you already did that.

5. Stop cleaning up after your foreign policy disasters....such as recognizing independence for Slovenia and Croatia from Yugoslavia.

6. Ask Putin to put the wall back up....probably popular with 2/3rds of all Germans?

7. Shut down 25% of our industrial base so that we can be in compliance with Kyoto?

8. Give European Jhadist life time memberships to Club Gitmo......after all..one needs a vacation from the stress of Jhad now and then?

9. Allow the Nobel Peace Prize Committee to nominate the European equivalents of Jimmy Carter....De Villepin, Fischer, and the goofs that won the elections in Spain and Italy....what ever their names are?

10. Or the best one!;-) Get your women pregnant so that the European race doesn’t die out in 50 years?

Che,
the problem is, most Germans are everything else but thankful. There is an anti-American attitude in this country one wouldn't expect just 16 years after the US was the major defender on the front line for German freedom (in a way it is still). The media and some politicians as well as actors in the education system play a huge role in furthering arrogance, hatred and ignorance instead of understanding, I know that from my own experience.

Each single country of the world is following its own interests. And one should come to the conclusion that America's and Europe's should be the same or at least very similar regarding security and value matters. But the fact that America became the biggest threat (leaving China, Iran, North Korea, terrorism, ... far behind) to European ideas and philosophy in the mind of many left-wing politicians, media and normal citizens is really absurd, ludicrous, dangerous, unbelievable, ...
I recommend you to read "Of Paradise and Power" from Robert Kagan on this topic.

BTW, Germany is not closing U.S. air stations because it benefits from them. It benefits from many things the U.S. intelligence does. U.S. information prevented terrorist attacks in Europe. They say Guantanamo is wrong, a crime against humanity, but they still want the information and sent their officers to question detainees there.
They are fooling people into believing that Germany, France, etc are somehow better human beings and have more humane governments. While German agents are questioning terrorist suspects in torture prisons in Syria, German government officials demand the closure of Guantanamo. Many people really like to be fooled regarding this issue ...

@ George M
>Or the best one!;-) Get your women pregnant so that the European race doesn’t die out in 50 years?

Send pix :-)

George M,

a good start would be not kidnapping german guys in Serbia (or wherever he was), bringing them to Afghanistan, or Syria (where, according to CJ, torture prisons exist, see above), questioning him and half a year later, return them without an explanation. I'm waiting for the day the BND captures some american dude in Tijuana, because they have a list with a "John Smith" on it, and they bring him to Deutsch-Südwest (Namibia), later they realize, oooops, "John Smith" is a very common name in the States, we better bring him back. I would laugh my ass off. I bet Condi would freak out, tanks would roll and the GI's would conquer the Reichstag.

Or, hey, how about not using Frankfurt or Berlin as hubs for your CIA prisoner flights? That would be nice too. Or what about Italy? The Imam that got kidnapped of the streets. Or what happened to this fighter jet pilot that downed the cable car in the italian alps a while ago? Apparantly they were playing top gun. Crime comitted in Italy. Did this guy see a court room in Italy from the inside? Nope. He is a happy camper, somewhere in the motherland.

This is not the way you treat your friends nor it is the way you convince your enemies. I won't even get into this Iraq prison scandal.

1. Buy more Mercs and BMW, what else do you want buy? Suburbans? Hummers?
2. Germany is the country with the highest export volume in the world, before China. Tough labour laws? Maybe. But how about you educate your people better, then they would give you less reasons to fire them ;)
3. Cumbersome visa? How about getting rid of stupid paperwork that asks you if you were a member of the NSDAP when you want to enter the country? Or if you are HIV positive? I have a blast each time I come here. Or, even better, fingerprinting people. What would happen if we would fingerprint tourists? Yeah, right you are, the N-word would we hear.
4. The truth hurts sometimes.
5. European problem.
6. Who is Putin? ;)
7. Good idea.
8. Bring them back where you picked them up.
9. Good idea.
10. Temporary problem.


Oh, one last thing: Could please collect David Hasselhoffs passport and burn it? People still ask me here if we really liked that guy. He is kind of embarrassing. Oh, yeah, and stop blaming our LIBERAL and OBJECTIVE media for your political blunders. It's just the wrong end.

I came across this article at the CNN website, and I would like to share that with you.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/04/rumsfeld.ap/index.html

Some quotes:

""Why did you lie to get us into a war that caused these kind of casualties and was not necessary?" asked Ray McGovern, the former analyst."

Poor Rumsi. Tough crowd. Bush hat es da besser.

"President Bush seldom faces such challenges. Demonstrators usually are kept far from him when he delivers public remarks."

That is one way to deal with critique. Let's see what the world has in store for Condi.

"Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has had direct confrontations overseas. These include demonstrators who called her a murderer and war criminal in Australia in March, and throngs of anti-war protesters who dogged her every move in northern England in April."

Mmmhhhhh, so it's not only the bloody germans and their godless liberal-and-taxraiser-flagship-weekly "Der Spiegel" that opposes the war. No.

"More than half of Americans say the war in Iraq was not worth the cost financially or in loss of life, recent public polling has found. Just over one-third of those surveyed say they approve of Bush's handing of the war. Public sentiment about the war has been at those low levels since autumn."

It's also the american people that think that. But hold your fire, my fellow medienkritikers. We are not done yet.

"In recent weeks, at least a half dozen retired generals have called for Rumsfeld's resignation, saying he has ignored advice offered by military officers and made strategic errors in the Iraq war, including committing too few troops."

Now Rumsi continues:

"He also said, "We need ways to make sure we're better understood in the world than we are."

Oh, my sweet Jesus, who would have thought of that? But soon he falls back into the old scheme of american foreign policy that caused the mess in Iraq.

"In his prepared remarks, Rumsfeld singled out the increasingly close U.S. military relationship with Pakistan as an example of how the Bush administration believes it can improve U.S. national security in the long run by building ties to non-traditional allies."

As we all know, Pakistan is fully democratic state, that values human rights, is non-aggressive towards it's neighbors, all in all, a dream of an ally. Thank God, they have an atomic bomb. I already feel much safer.

But not every romance is perfect, Rumsi again:

"He noted that when U.S. troops were in Pakistan last year to help with rescue and relief operations following a devastating earthquake, the Americans noticed that while senior Pakistani officers worked well with U.S. forces, the junior Pakistani officers seemed suspicious of the United States' motives for getting involved."

But Rumsi is a pro, he is not tripping over peanuts like this.

"The difference, he said, can be explained by the fact that while most senior Pakistani officers had firsthand experience working with Americans early in their careers, the junior officers had not. That is because the U.S. government cut off military-to-military relations in the 1990s in response to Pakistan's nuclear program."

Che,

"a good start would be not kidnapping german guys in Serbia..."

In the big picture, who gives a crap? One guy, who is not an ethnic German, but a naturalized Muslim, gets mistakenly taken. Better than one guy gets mistakenly taken than 19 virgin seekers departing from Hamburg. If somebody hat put two bullets in Mohammed Atta'a hat, 3,000 people, including 80 Germans, would be alive today.

"Or, hey, how about not using Frankfurt or Berlin as hubs for your CIA prisoner flights?"

Then we won't let your BND agents sit on in the interrogations. Germany has received valuable information that has protected Germany from having a London or Madrid disaster in the last five years. Angela Merkel seems to recognize this and that is why she is keeping her mouth shut about this subject.

What Inman?

"Or what happened to this fighter jet pilot that downed the cable car in the Italian alps a while ago?"

He beat the manslaughter charge by destroying his own video tape. He was convicted on the charge of destroying evidence. He received a suspended sentence and was thrown out of the service without a pension. That's more of a stronger sentence than what 230 former DDR Grenztruppen received for killing Germans while trying to escape the worker's paradise.

"Apparantly they were playing top gun."

No, they were practicing to put their asses on the line for an ungrateful Europe. American air power finally fixed #5 after Germany broke it.

Speaking of moral indignation...Did Europe ever complain or condemn the 500 Dutch soldier's who gave up the 1500 Bosnians that they were protecting from the Serbs?

1. Buy more Mercs and BMW, what else do you want buy? Suburbans? Hummers?

Maybe Japanese cars...many Americans think that they are better than German cars. And the workers who build them do not depict us as "Blut Sauger."

2. Germany is the country with the highest export volume in the world, before China. Tough labour laws? Maybe. But how about you educate your people better, then they would give you less reasons to fire them ;)

I think you misunderstood my sarcasm. Unlike Germany, that must live off exports, we move our companies to the host country and employ people in the host country with the hope that they will buy our products.

3. Cumbersome visa? How about getting rid of stupid paperwork that asks you if you were a member of the NSDAP when you want to enter the country? Or if you are HIV positive? I have a blast each time I come here. Or, even better, fingerprinting people. What would happen if we would fingerprint tourists? Yeah, right you are, the N-word would we hear.

It used to be that you had to get your passport stamped at the American consulate or embassy. Since about 10 years ago, Germans may travel to the U.S. without a visa in their passports. Only about 11 countries get this elite treatment. But if you insist, we can treat you like any other country.

The other inconveniences were caused by 19 former technical school students, who were studying in....where else....Germany.

4. The truth hurts sometimes.

68ers with serious penis envy.

5. European problem.

No kidding

6. Who is Putin? ;)

Gerry Schroeders butt budy;)

7. Good idea.

I thought you would agree.

8. Bring them back where you picked them up.

Not a bad idea....The Afghans would love to kill them.

9. Good idea.

Thought you would agree

10. Temporary problem.

Time is a ticking.

Martina,

Luv to send you a pic, but I am afraid Che would get aroused!!

@Dave and che.ge,

Please understand what is happening here a little better. The US and Germany have a longstanding alliance and friendship the basis for which is eroding. On the one hand Germans don't feel valued as friends and allies because the US doesn't always follow their advice or take their orders. On the other side Americans are coming to see Germans as the people who always say no. Even on issues where they could say yes they seem to wait until the US takes a position then takes the opposite side.

By itself this little no is nothing. It's only as part of a series that it acquires meaning.

One more thing. Germany in this case says it turned the US down for fear of offending China. I can certainly understand that. Diplomatic relationships are very important and a country needs to make it's priorities clear. And the German govrnment could not have been more cleear. China's opinion is more important than that of the US. The German-China relationship a higher priority than the German-US relationship.

I think that is a huge mistake. But so be it!

I just reading some of these comments. Like the one about Ray McGovern. Of course, no one knows who he is or that it really important. He just attacked the SECDEF of the US. If you are a euro and espically if you are a German that is all that really matters.

What CNN did not tell you was how wildly mr mcgovern remarks were booed by the other members of the audiance.

Why should this be of any importance. It just does not fit the template of M$M or our euro "friends".

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