« Blog Carnival: "The Day I Woke As Pro-American" | Main | International Study: German State Media Most America Critical in Europe »

Comments

yeah the amis are so arrogant and besserwisserisch..
wait.. besserwessi? Germans describing other Germans as arrogant, but NO , the AMIS, THEY are arrogan.

Indians-Slaves-Mai-Lai-Vietnam-Abu-Ghraib-Guantanamo

Everytime I look that list is getting longer...

Note from David: Depends on where you start...

Klops, yes we have to work extremely hard to catch up. The actual figures put us on the downside and unless we work harder we'll never catch up. Just think of how well we did at Abu-Ghraib, though, it was a slaughter house, there were dead stacked in like cordwood. Hopefully you saw the pictures and the other proof. You shouldn't sleep well at night, we'll catch up with you and then you'll have to turn over the trophy. /sar

“How about SPIEGEL or Sueddeutsche or Stern or any of the other cynical, self-righteous propaganda rags do just one front-page article on the children and relatives of the nearly 3,000 victims of September 11, 2001.”

Come on David and Ray, they would never to that. Besides, we “squandered” Germany's sympathy.

I sort of feel sorry for this generation of Germans. 60 years have passed since Hitler committed suicide in the bunker. The baby boom generation and Gen X shouldn’t have to have the holocaust repeatedly shoved down their throats.

However, the Spiegel should shine some light on the crimes of the former Hoenecker regime. I understand that the former ice princess, Katerina Witt, hosts a talk show on German television, celebrating nostalgia for the former East German regime. Ms Witt is about 15 years younger than I. I believe she qualifies to belong to Gen X.

Some of the highlights that Der Spiegel and Ms Witt have omitted in their writings:

- 240 to 600 Germans murdered by the East German regime while trying to cross into West Berlin or into West Germany.

- The head of the STASI, the East German secrete service, was never charged because he was “senile,” (Sounds like he must have employed Pinochet’s lawyers).

- Many East Germans were imprisoned or murdered in German Gulags. (I can not find any sources listing how many deaths or executions occurred in East German prisons).

- East Germany had a hand in sponsoring the Red Army Faktion and the Baader Meinhof gang, who murdered more Germans and American Serviceman than Americans murdered Iraqis in Iraq.

- Both the Hoenecker and the Schroeder regimes did an active business with Saddam Hussain. I believe this is the cause of Schroeder’s decision not to support the U.S. in Iraq, not peace. Schroeder was just joining France and Russia in cynically protecting their economic interest.

- Only the commander of the border guards received a substantial sentence for the murders mentioned above. (8 years). Everyone else got a wrist-slap.

“We'll keep on pushing back until the Nazi crimes don't hurt anymore: Indians-Slaves-Mai-Lai-Vietnam-Abu-Ghraib-Guantanamo.”

If our German friends want to go that far back and equate slavery and Wounded Knee with their Nazi regime, then we must celebrate Germany’s glorious colonial past. The Imperial German Army eliminated 100,000 natives in what is now Namibia, when they were the colonial rulers of that country.

@George M

There were countless articles in Der Spiegel on Mauerschuetzen, on the Stasi etc. I agree that the Mauerschuetzen should have received stronger sentences and should not have been pardoned as much as they had been. However, it's simply not true that Der Spiegel did not report on these incidents. Also, the Gauck Behoerde did an amazing job of working through Stasi files. Name one other instance in which an entire department dedicated to secret service files of a former regime has been created.

Erich Mielke, head of the Stasi, was sentenced in 1993 for a crime he committed in 1931. Had nothing to do with East Germany. He was already 86 years old and lived in a Plattenbau. I don't know if you know Plattenbauten, but if you've seen one you know that it would have been kinda redundant to imprison senile Mielke at that point. I'm sure he had a wonderful six years in his cubicle.

The RAF killed more Germans and Americans than Americans killed Iraqis?! Where did you get that? The RAF killed 34 people.

Schroeder regime? Now, you may not like Schroeder, but a democratically elected chancellor hardly constitutes a regime.

The RAF killed more Germans and Americans than Americans killed Iraqis?! Where did you get that? The RAF killed 34 people."

I count 24 cases that are under various stages of investigation. This information is 2 years old. However, the MSM has not done a follow up article on this subject.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/03/16/national/w113007S95.DTL

"Schroeder regime? Now, you may not like Schroeder, but a democratically elected chancellor hardly constitutes a regime"

Hitler was also a democratically elected Kanzeler.

Schroeder ran for re-election twice: solely on an anti-American platform. His platform did not work the second time around.

His foreign minister was a member of the RAF that killed the 34 people that you mentioned above. He (Fischer) was also an associate of master terrorist, Karlos the Jackal. History will de-legitimatize the Schroeder regime as time goes on. When Joseph Fischer went to New York to vote against the U.S. in the Security Council, it was like a fox entering the hen-house.

Schroeder regime? Now, you may not like Schroeder, but a democratically elected chancellor hardly constitutes a regime.

No more than the Bush administration constitutes a 'regime'. But many Germans seem to regard Bush as worse than any ordinary regime - they see him as like Hitler. How's that again?

Here's an idea: Spiegel should send a reporters to various prisons around the world. You know, a sort of "day in the life" angle. Then, they can get together afterwards, compare notes, and write about their experiences. Here are some suggestions for prison's (or countires) they can visit:

Cuba
Venezuela
Iran
Syria
Saudi Arabia
Egypt
Turkey
Sudan
North Korea
China
France (especially, in Paris)

Oh, and of course Guantanamo.

Should make for an interesting read.

“How about SPIEGEL or Sueddeutsche or Stern or any of the other cynical, self-righteous propaganda rags do just one front-page article on the children and relatives of the nearly 3,000 victims of September 11, 2001.”

Why does this not count?

@ Martina,

Doesn't the fact that you had to go all the way back to 2001 tell you something? And how many articles can we find about Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib?

By smearing America, Spiegel hopes to make Germany look cleaner. Aber es ist nicht möglich. In their hearts, Germans long to follow the man from Braunau, Austria.

@ Ray,

sure, but don't you think your article needs an update now?

@ Martina,

Not at all. Is that cover about the families and relatives of the 9/11 victims?

@ PacRim Jim

No offense, but I think the man from Branau statement is absolutely ridiculous.

There is one thing i dont really understand: If the german media has been bashing the US for decades now, why hasnt the antipathy of most germans against america started ealier?

Maybe this has to do with the following: The US and the germans had a common enemy until 1990 - and we all know that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, right? And afterwards the interests simply began to split up.

Flux,

You wrote about the failure of the German government to prosecute Erich Mielke, the former head of the East German STASI, (Secret Police).

"He was already 86 years old and lived in a Plattenbau. I don't know if you know Plattenbauten, but if you've seen one you know that it would have been kinda redundant to imprison senile Mielke at that point. I'm sure he had a wonderful six years in his cubicle."

I found the following definition of a Plattenbau in Wikepedia:

"Plattenbau is the German word for a building whose structure is constructed of large, prefabricated concrete slabs, often found in central and eastern Europe. The word is a compound of Platte (slab) and Bau (building). Sometimes described as "Stalin Box", a Plattenbau building is essentially a tower block.

In the former GDR, virtually all new residential buildings since the 1960s were built in this style. Since reunification a combination of decreasing population and construction of modern alternative housing has lead to high vacancy rates, with some estimates placing the number of unoccupied units at around a million. While the modular construction method makes it possible to remodel some blocks, some are being torn down, although a lack of funds means many are being left to become derelict."

So Mielke's punishment was to lose his Villa and live like 16 million other East Germans. Boy, that's pretty heartless.

I hope you see the irony. The guy who made his country a virtual prison, ended up living in a virtual prison, in an apartment building that was symbolic of his regime.

I am reminded of two things...

Guantanamo better than Belgian prisons-OSCE expert

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyid=2006-03-06T180359Z_01_L06336874_RTRUKOC_0_US-EU-USA-GUANTANAMO.xml

and,

Better than French prisons, too

http://www.studentbmj.com/back_issues/0300/news/55b.html


American blogger, Captain's Quarters Blog, has solicited help to review the released Gitmo docs to evaluate those still detained. The information will be limited of course. You may want to check there once his evaluation is complete.

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/

Also, I would only remind you, that many many of those innocent Afghani guardeners that have been released from Gitmo have been picked back up on the battlefield killing NATO forces and planning/performing further terrorist acts.

Get real.

@ Ray
> Not at all. Is that cover about the families and relatives of the 9/11 victims?

No, but the front-page article clearly is (sorry for the caps):

"AM 11. SEPTEMBER WURDEN NEW YORK UND DIE WELT VON EINEM ATTENTAT GETROFFEN, WIE ES VORHER KEINES GAB. IN EINER VIERTEILIGEN SERIE BESCHREIBT DER SPIEGEL DIE HINTERGRÜNDE: DIE MONATELANGE VORBEREITUNG DES ANGRIFFS DURCH DIE TÄTER, DIE VORGÄNGE AN BORD DER FLUGZEUGE UND DAS DRAMA IN DEN TÜRMEN DES WORLD TRADE CENTER. SPIEGEL-RECHERCHEN UNTER BEKANNTEN DER TÄTER, BEI SICHERHEITSBEHÖRDEN UND ÜBERLEBENDEN MACHEN ES MÖGLICH, DEN ABLAUF DES MASSENMORDS AN ÜBER 3000 MENSCHEN AUS 62 LÄNDERN MINUTIÖS ZU REKONSTRUIEREN."

> “How about SPIEGEL or Sueddeutsche or Stern or any of the other cynical, self-righteous propaganda rags do just one front-page article on the children and relatives of the nearly 3,000 victims of September 11, 2001.”

I don't know where your problem is. You got what you wanted, they run the article, why do you keep denying it?

Martina,

"I don't know where your problem is. You got what you wanted, they run the article, why do you keep denying it?"

My problem, as a reader of this blog and a frequent reader of Spiegel, is that Spiegel is running this article two years after the fact:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,406163,00.html

There is no news worthiness in this article. The pictures and the news story are already 2 years old. It's sole purpose is to incite its readers and to leave them with a smug feeling: "Amies sind Dreck."

If the Spiegel were fair, they would still run pictures of the 3,000 victims of the attack on the World Trade Center. As a minimum, they could run pictures of the 82 Germans that died in this attack. They may also want to run pictures of the 240 Germans that were shot, or blown up, while crossing the border into West Berlin.

Remember, none of the “poor Iraqis” in the pictures depicted in the Spiegel article were murdered. The perpetrators of the prison scandal are now serving longer prison sentences than any of the former East German border guards that shot their countrymen in cold blood.

VDH is on a roll, again:

Teflon Europe
They’re just as bad as we are, only worse.
http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200603170749.asp

Some juicy quotes:

"The prison at Guantanamo Bay...for all the fury about its existence, not a single detainee has died there in over four years of operation."

"In contrast, the European Milosevic just dropped dead while under custody of the U.N. at the postmodern tribunal at The Hague. This follows the recent suicide of Croatian Serb leader Milan Babic, likewise an inmate in a European detention center."

"Few in Europe said much about the deaths of such high-profile prisoners, whose barbarity differed from that of many of the killers in Guantanamo mostly in order of magnitude. If American Rambos can keep alive Muslim jihadists, with their radically different customs, religion, languages, and diets, why cannot the more sensitive Europeans ensure that fellow Europeans don't drop dead in their jails?"

"We often hear about how incompetent the Iraqis, under American tutelage, have been in trying Saddam Hussein. After all, his trial is only in its initial stages, two years after he was captured. But compared to the more illustrious court of The Hague, Saddam's trial is racing along at a rapid clip. Before his sudden death, Milosevic had been in court for four years without a verdict. In terms of utopian international jurisprudence, the reprobate Milosevic died a free man, at his last breath still innocent until proven guilty."

"The public wonders why the incompetent Americans can't catch Osama bin Laden, or at least Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Few note that it has been over six years since the collapse of the Serbian rogue regime, and still no one seems to know where either Radovan Karadzic, or his military commander, Ratko Mladic, is hiding inside Europe — not exactly the Sunni Triangle or the borderlands of the Hindu Kush."

"Are there consequences to this double standard? For a growing number of Americans, who were nursed on affection for things European, there grows now a weariness with the Europeans. We don't listen much to what they say; and we assume that their pot will always call our kettle black."

"But I wonder: Are we going to look to the European practice of trying war criminals? Should Saddam be transferred to Milosevic's now empty cell? Is the model coalition in Afghanistan all that much more loved or effective than the one in Iraq? Should we shut down Guantanamo and outsource its inmates to The Hague? Have the European police done so much better in hunting down a Mladic or Karadzic than our soldiers have in their more muscular hunt for Osama? And will the United Nations, the EU3, the Russians, and the Chinese, in multilateral fashion, really stop the Iranian nuclear program — or simply stall meaningful action until they can collectively shrug, and sigh, "Oh, well, just another Pakistan, after all"?"

@ Martina,

Again, that was years ago, and it was NOT about the families of the victims but about the event itself. Do you know of a media outlet that did not cover the actual event?

My point is that the coverage of Guantanamo is so out of proportion with other topics (listed in my post) that it is frankly frightening. To paraphrase the Clinton campaign: "It's the lack of balance, stupid."

If you want to continue to chase your tail trying to prove that SPIEGEL published something years ago related to what I mention in the post, that is your good right. Just don't expect anyone here to take you seriously.

It's the same with the death penalty... German media rejoices in casting their opinions of the American capital punishment system. But turns a blind eye to executions in China. They know there are more executions in China than the sum of all others in the world, but they choose to ignore it.

@ Ray
> Again, that was years ago, and it was NOT about the families of the victims but about the event itself.

Funny way of saying "I didn't read the article". The articles are full of moving stories about the victims and their relatives. Or are you saying it doesn't count because it was not solely about the victims and their families, but also included further information? Well, if that is not the type of article you want to see from SPIEGEL etc. for the sake of balance then I don't know ...

Ray, I get your point, and you are absolutely right about it. But you don't seem to get my point: It can still be out of balance even if there are articles like that. Your article insinuates there is not a single one, which is just wrong, and I am just pointing this out according to your comment policy in order to improve the quality of this blog. I can't do more than to provide you with the link.

As to being taken seriously: It is not my credibility that is at stake here. For you to be taken seriously by us, the readers of this blog, we expect that you get the facts right, and if not, that you at least include a correction when your errors are pointed out to you. It's your choice!

@ Martina,

Nowhere do I imply that they have never written a single article about 9/11 or the victims before. That would be ridiculous. Of course they wrote about 9/11 and the victims when it happened and even later. Who didn't?

What I said was that it would be nice if they could do one lead story on what has become of the families of the victims. And yes, I mean solely about the families of the victims. That is why I continually emphasize "families/children/relatives" in the third paragraph. That's what I wrote and that's exactly what I meant. Shouldn't the German people find out what has happened to them? And, NO, I'm not talking about some article written years ago that just mentions them in passing with all kinds of other details. My main point (and I think we agree here if we could get past the irrelevant nitpicking) is that the balance is totally out of whack. Period.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Our Mission

The Debate

Blog powered by Typepad

May 2014

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
        1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30 31