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» Moonbats Exploit Tookie's Demise from Moonbattery
Moonbats mourning a murderer, via SFGate. Considering their unfailing knack for identifying evil and sanctimoniously siding with it, it's hardly surprising that moonbats reacted to the cold-blooded and thoroughly unreformed (PDF) multiple murderer Too... [Read More]

» Moonbats Exploit Tookie's Demise from Moonbattery
Moonbats mourning a murderer, via SFGate. Considering their unfailing knack for identifying evil and sanctimoniously siding with it, it's hardly surprising that moonbats reacted to the cold-blooded and thoroughly unreformed (PDF) multiple murderer Too... [Read More]

Comments

The Germans prefer gas. It is quicker.

How can the same animals who killed millions in Auschwitz and try to blame it on the Allies for not bombing the railways that led to the camp, and only recently acknowledged the 65,000 they massacred in Namibia in 1904 get upset over the execution of a convicted murderer?

Hi,

I've been lurking a long time and now finally decided to take part.

This seems par for the course. It seems rather hypocritical of the European media to look at things in such a black and white way. This is the same type of failing they accused the Bush administration concerning the al-Qaeda terrorists.

SPON (and the German media) never miss the opportunity to take cheap shots at America. As RayD said: As long as the public gets its daily anti-Amerika fix, all is good. And that's what this is all about.

I happen to be against the death penalty. I understand the reason behind it, even though I don't agree with it. I guess this puts me on the same page with SPON. However, the SPON communists don't really have a problem with violent death. Their problem is with America only. They spread their poisonous message and the Germans take it all in without questioning it. Once in a while, a German infected with the disease shows up on this site and proves once again the efficiency of Goebbels nephews. As long as the people are exposed to this kind of vicious manipulation, the US-EU relationship will not truly recover.

One of Tookies son's has just been charged with raping his girlfriend's 13 year old daughter at gunpoint to get back at the mom. Another Tookie son is serving 20 years in prison.

So much for the books and his influence on kids.

Lastly, lefties don't want the death penalty so long as they can pay some working class stiff to have to risk his/her life guarding these animals. You'd think the lefties would, in a kind of leftist patriotism, volunteer to guard these monsters for a year or two.

What have you folks living in Europe heard from Germany's "Mini Me:" Austria?

The word on the radio is that they are going to take away Governor Schwarzenegger's Austrian citizenship for "murdering" Tookie Williams.

They are also going to rename some soccer stadium, which is now named the "Arnold Schwarzenegger" stadium, the "Stanley Tookie Williams" stadium.

Maybe we should rename Yankee stadium the "Bomber Harris" stadium. If Germans become offended, we could throw some Spiegel/Schroeder spin at them. After all, we would not be renaming the stadium after the man who was the architect of the bombing of Dresden and other German cities. We would be honoring the "Bronx Bombers!"

I'm sitting here with a three and half inch (9 cm) bruise in the crook of my arm from where I donated blood (platelets actually) the other day. The technician who put the needle in said the vein "moved" the first time so she had to pull it out and do it again. That's never happened before and the bruise it formed is surprisingly large and ugly looking. Sure, it pinched a little and hurt a bit at the time. But I would hardly call it "excructiating". If I had to choose between that and a shotgun blast to the back of the head it's not much of a competition.

My problem with many death penalty opponents is their utter lack of perspective. I can understand principled opposition to the death penalty but I don't understand pretending that the victims don't even exist and making heroes out of the killers. The victims are barely if ever mentioned by that crowd. I hope the story about Austria is untrue because even if one is opposed to the death penalty that is absolutely no reason to lionize someone who pointed a shotgun at the back of another human being's head (one truly innocent in every sense of the word) and pulled the trigger.

(It could remind one of another situation where a certain group theoretically opposed to killing somehow is able to find it within themselves to lionize another group of killers but that's for a different topic.)

Here's one of my personal pet peeves:

Newspaper headline announces "John Doe convicted of killing store clerk" or something similar. Notice the killer is almost always named and the victim almost always isn't. How would you like your entire life reduced to the two words "store clerk"? Like that was the sum total and meaning of your existence and you didn't have a family, hobbies, interests and accomplishments, hopes and dreams. Victims really do get very little respect, especially murder victims who aren't around to speak for themselves. Just once I'd like to see a newspaper headline say "John Doe convicted of killing human being".

"SPIEGEL ONLINE makes absolutely no mention of Williams' brutal crimes in the piece."

And this is supposed to be a news outlet? Disgusting.

You can know a man by his enemies. The list of people and media entities that are hyperventilating over the long-overdue execution of this filth are a strong indication that not only was it just but morally necessary. I almost wish I lived somewhere where people were not either gung-ho for or indifferent to Williams's execution just so I could rile up these moral neophytes.

joe wrote:
How can the same animals who killed millions in Auschwitz and try to blame it on the Allies for not bombing the railways that led to the camp, and only recently acknowledged the 65,000 they massacred in Namibia in 1904 get upset over the execution of a convicted murderer?

I was born 1983, I am a german.... I have nothing to do with this what hat happend in Auschwitsch. I wasnt born at this time, so I can talk about that issue and I can only get uppset. I can uppset for that what you had said and about the death penalty.
What do you have from it that Tookie now is death? What has the familie from the murdered persons from it that Tookie is death?
Oh yeah, I can hear it.... all bad boys will learn from that.... off course.... you have the death penalty so long and since you have it in your country the criminality was getting down, shure.
It is proved that the criminal rate not get down with death penalty.

About Spiegel Online, I think they had sayed that Tookie had killed 4 ppl. They cant show ppl with blood flooding faces. If it would be so, the magazine would be rated for 18.

Do you blame murders, but you have no problem if the murder is send from the administration. This is realy confuse?!?

Zacharias, go back and look at the picture of the daughter. Understand that she was alive when the shotgun blast took her face away. If you can feel no disgust for tookie williams and satisfaction for his passing, you have troubles that require medical help.

As a life long citizen of the Republic of California I can say that I fully endorsed this persons execution. I wish we would carry out more executions more often. We have 600+ persons waiting on death row I think. I have no problem with the state executing them in my name. I take full responsibiltiy upon myself for his death since it was done in my name. We have the most liberal Judicial oversight in the United States I believe. They would have, if they could have, found a way to stop it. There was none, he was guilty. Now he is dead. More and faster please.

The truth is the average person in the EU supports th death penalty. The Media and Political elites don't. Ask a typical citizen of the EU, not the upper middle class and elites. They will say "bring it back."

I HAD SEEN THEpictures. AndI know hat Tookie ad done.
Buto yokowwat OOKIEEEEhad done after thisadtngß
He wa nomminatet for the peace nobel price 4 times.
Do you think that when you murder a murder it will help you?
When you gets happy with the murdering on a human you would be the same like the murder.

Some thousend years ago there was a thing called eye around eye tooth around tooth. I hope this is correctly translatet, in german it is Auge um Auge, Zahn um Zahn.
In othrwords, if you beat me, I will beat you and if yu beat me again, I will bea you again.... its a never ending thing.

@Mike H
Show me these ppl who means that means death penalty is a good thing. I know no one who says death penalty is good.

Oh, sry I had get some problems with my keyboard... I have an wirless one....
The 2nd text is "But do you know what he had done after this?"

To answer Zachar1as question about what Stanley Williams had done (and not done) between the time of his arrest and his belated execution:

1. Leading a failed attempt to blow up a prison bus, risking the deaths of both prisoners and guards, in an attempt to escape.

2. Numerous assaults and fights with other prisoners requiring solitary confinement at San Quentin for over six years.

3. Refusal during his entire period of incarceration to give any assistance to Los Angeles, California or Federal authorities in combatting criminal activities by the Crips and other Los Angeles gangs.

4. Publicly praising in his "children's books" violent criminals such as Leonard Pelletier (sp?), Abdul Mumia ( spelling? I'm referring to the honoray citizen of Paris and murderer of Philadelphia policeman Daniel Faulkner) and George Jackson.

Zachar1as, I would urge you to read Gov. Schwarzengger's statement denying William's clemency if you wish to know what Williams had done since he murdered four innocent people.

That Williams was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize puts him in the same category of other Nobel nominees and murderers such as Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler and Yassir Arafat.

Finally, I enjoyed one completely false statement in the ZDF Heute broadcast this evening. The news reader said that there were over 2,000 demonstrators outside San Quentin demanding that Williams' life be spared. Even the California newspapers (all of whom openly campaigned for Williams' clemency on their front pages) acknowledged that there were only a few hundred demonstrators, who were actually outnumbered by the reporters.

Of all the books Tookie wrote in hopes of deterring youth from taking the path he did, the "last chapter" was the most effective since it declares loud and clear: "If you do bad stuff to others, bad stuff will happen to you." Now give him the Peace Prize posthumously.

Zachar1as,

Do you know what the criteria is to be nominated for a Nobel Peace prize?
There is no criteria. That's how people like Hitler, Stalin and Milosevic got to be nominated.

Hundreds of people are nominated every year. I could nominate you for a Nobel Peace Prize. You could nominate me. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean we're deserving of being *awarded* the Peace Prize.

Williams' lawyers and other assorted supporters nominated him, as a political ploy. That's all it was. It doesn't make him a peacemaker or any less of a murderer.

You also wrote this: "Do you blame murders, but you have no problem if the murder is send from the administration. This is realy confuse?!?"

I believe what you're saying (and you're not the first to make this argument) is that since it is wrong for a citizen, such as Tookie Williams, to kill someone then it is also wrong for the government to kill someone. Right?

Let me ask you this. Is it wrong for me to take you off the street and imprison you in my house for years? Of course it is. That would be kidnapping. And that's clearly illegal and wrong. So why is the government allowed to imprison someone like Tookie Williams or other criminals? If it's wrong for citizens to imprison someone against their will then it must also be wrong for the government to do it. Isn't that your argument about "murder"?

The fact is that the government is not a person and it has rights you and I don't have. It can fine us, imprison us (and, yes, in certain states it can kill us) if we break certain laws. These penalties are decided on and agreed by society. We, as private citizens, do not have the same rights to fine, imprison or kill our neighbors. That's just the way it is. In all societies, not just the U.S.

"These penalties are decided on and agreed by society. We, as private citizens, do not have the same rights to fine, imprison or kill our neighbors."

In the USA that is called "due process of law". The Constitution says "No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law". It doesn't say it can't be done, it says it can't be done without the proper legal procedures. That's what makes it not murder. It's a legal judgment not an act of personal malice.

From Zachar1as: "Do you blame murders, but you have no problem if the murder is send from the administration. This is realy confuse?!?"

Just to clear up this point. The administration (the executive branches of our government), whether state or federal, do not determine the penalty in any criminal case. That is the job of courts, including judges and juries (made up of our fellow citizens), and they follow the law as written by the legislature. The courts are the instruments of deciding punishment in this country.

Also from Zachar1as: "What has the familie from the murdered persons from it that Tookie is death?"

I can't speak from personal experience but I have read many stories in the press where the families of murder victims say they found peace after the execution of their loved one's killer. For many of them, it is the first peace they have felt in many years. I won't say I can explain it, since I haven't been in that position, and maybe I would feel differently if I was, but it does seem to be the case that it helps the mental peace of many victim's families.

@Zachar1as

I am an AMerican who lives in Germany. The widespread view of America here is that we are barbarians, uncultured, violent, etc.
The Germans view THEMSELVES on the other hand as civilized, sophisticated, 'das Land von Dichtern und Denkern'.
NOW.. this 'Land von Dichtern u. Denkern' had to execute 6 million plus people (mostly probably almost ALL innocent) before they realized 'HEY maybe this is immoral'.

America, this violent uncultured land of Barbarians has executed 1000 people over a span of 30 years - most of whom (hopefully ALL) were TOTschuldig.

Maybe this 'LAnd of poets and thinkers' could be just a little more patient with this 'land
of uncultured violent barbaric warmongers'. Instead of self righteous preaching perhaps a more gentle form of persuasion could work. After all diplomacy can solve everything, right? Why, diplomacy was good enough for Saddam.. If the AMis had just been more tolerant, patient and understanding (like the Germans), Saddam would have become a cute cuddly teddy bear.

Is there really a comparison? Do Germans really have the right to be so smug, self righteous and self satisfied? I know you had nothing to do with Auschwitz. But I had nothing to do with slavery, Vietnam, the mistreatment of the Indians, Hiroshima, etc. and I have to hear about it frequently from self righteous Germans. What entitles you to better treatment than me?

Even if you are right about the death penalty, how about a little perspective? Wagging fingers doesn't do a whole lot of good and is actually contra productive.

Me, I am against the death penalty, but I didN't lose a whole lot of sleep about Tookie.

It is not surprising that the German media would passionately support a mass murderer. After all, they have done it before. Oh. I'm talking about their support for Saddam of course. Who else could I possibly mean?

I have seen pictures of the pro-Tookie protests outside of the prison. It looks many of the protesters were members of the International Socialist Organization. That is what it is really about in Germany too. The Socialists or Leftists or whatever you want to call them don't give a hoot about Tookie or Mumia or the death penalty. They use the issue to attack the U.S. because they correctly percieve that it is the U.S. that stands between them and their goal of world domination. The Euro-Socialists have always considered it their duty and destiny to spread their misguided utopian delusions across the globe. So it was with the Nazis. So it is today.

@Zachar1as

>>"Some thousend years ago there was a thing called eye around eye tooth around tooth. I hope this is correctly translatet, in german it is Auge um Auge, Zahn um Zahn. In othrwords, if you beat me, I will beat you and if yu beat me again, I will bea you again.... its a never ending thing."

This is the usual reaction we get from the hate peddlars if you call them on their propaganda. They wring their hands and start spouting all the usual pieties about the evils of the death penalty, or whatever other holy cause they happen to be exploiting as a vehicle for their faux moralistic indignation. In other words, they create a diversion, they change the subject. This thread is not about the death penalty and its justification. It is not about whether the death penalty deters. It is not about whether the families of victims benefit from executions. It is not about whether the death penalty makes us safer. It is not about the death penalty period! This thread IS about the exploitation of an execution to promote and sell hatred directed at the United States. The problem with people like Zachar1as is that so many of them actually believe their own cant. SPON publishes a story expecting us to swallow the claim that an annoyance familiar to anyone who gives blood regularly is equivalent to the tortures of the damned. In accordance with the usual MO, they completely ignore the victims. They are utterly indifferent to the villagers recently butchered in China for daring to object to the theft of their land. They are utterly indifferent to the 30,000 executed in China during the 90's. After all, as Stalin pointed out, 30,000 is a mere statistic. They are utterly indifferent to the continuing slaughter in Darfur. Yet, in spite of all this, Zachar1as, shedding torrents of crocodile tears, expects us to overlook this blatant example of hate peddling. He expects us to swallow the pathetic lie that those paragons of virtue, the editors of SPON are only motivated by opposition to capital punishment. He waves his hands and showers us with the usual pious platitudes. Get a clue, Zachar1as. This is 2005, not 1995, and we've had a belly full of hate mongering fobbed off as "objective criticism." This thread isn't about the death penalty. It's about the exploitation of the death penalty to promote hatred of my country, and the willing stooges who try to justify it.

I happen to live in one the states that abolished the death penalty (120 years ago). I can tell you that opposition to the death penalty is not a phenomenon of the "looney left" as you say. There is widespread consensus here among conservatives and liberals that the death penalty is unconstitutional and is not an effective deterrent. On this - at least in my state - both Republicans and Democrats agree.

When the European left can muster up at least the same amount of moral outrage over the thousands of political prisoners China executes each year, maybe then their bleats will mean something to backwards Americans like me.

Until they do so, their protests will be taken as they are: Hypocritical and meaningless gestures.

Glenn Greenwald says it best:

"The countries which the European Left makes a passionate cause of defending – from the Palestinian Authority to Iran and Syria, not to mention Cuba, China and multiple other historic Communist regimes –- routinely imprison and/or execute people without any due process, for reasons ranging from criticism of the Government to adultery and homosexuality. None of that sparks “outrage among Europeans,” because none of that provides an opportunity to depict the United States as the world’s real evil. As a result, the European Left is uninterested in it."

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2005/12/true-character-of-european-left.html

Since the Euroleft isn't interested in denouncing true evil, I am not interested in taking their opinions about the death penalty seriously.

Ok, good opinions. But pls, let me ask one question, many of you life here in germany so you can answer it realy easy.
Here in germany we havent the death penalty, right? Right!
Ok, now my question, do we have here more criminals? More gangs? More murders?

The death penalty was designed to shock all criminals, but it looks like it shocks only the normal citizen and not the criminals.

@ Ambrose Wolfinger
Sounds hard, but you can answer me this question too, why I hadnt here anything about such things in germans prisons? Did you had? I didnt.

@ Saquin
There is a difference between arrest and death panelty.

@amiexpat
If you hear that from other germans, why you blame now me? Had I blame you for the failures of America? I am talking here about the death penalty.

@ beimami
Of course, only germany has played with saddam, lol.... do you believe realy that there is any country in the whole world that never supports an country like iraq? With such oil and the heavy need of weapens becouse the boss of iraq was insane, lol.

@Helian
Oh no, this is no hate peddlars against america, this is only hate peddlars against the death penalty.
Did you had seen the pictures from the iraq death penaltry? When an men gets murdered by the rope on an open place? I think it was hard for you to see that.
So now, you have it how it is for an country to see another country that has death paneltry.
Ps. I dont want to compare america with iraq! Read again if you think that.


To all who means that you can get easily the peace nobel price, show it me. Let a friend nominate you and then get the price and show me a picture of you and the price....

Im not a big bible fan, bu I had rembered in the 10 commandments.
There is more about the 5th commandments.

I had found this on the web....
http://www.mdr.de/kultur/647735-hintergrund-661112.html#absatz7

No killing is allowed, if it is killing your neighbor, or you becouse you had killed your neighbor.

By the way, you DO know that Europeans aren't as anti-death penalty as the left-controlled European press would have you believe, right?

http://www.rasmusen.org/x/archives/652

@ Zachar1as

I think you are missing the point. This posting is not fundamentally about the correctness of the death penalty. As you can see here in the comments section, some of us are for the death penalty, some against, and some have our reservations.

No. This is about BIAS in the German media. The way that the Williams' execution was covered by publications like SPIEGEL was shamefully one-sided and has rightly provoked all of the anger you have read in this comments section. We can have an honest, thoughtful debate about the death penalty. A lot of Americans find themselves on both sides of the issue. What we can't have is the usual moralizing, self-righteous, condescending, holier-than-thou finger wagging of the Eurosnob elites. That will only shut the conversation down.

BTW Zachar1as: George W. Bush and Tony Blair were also nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize very recently. That must make them both super-super good guys for you too...right?

@ Zachar1as

you said:
If you hear that from other germans, why you blame now me? Had I blame you for the failures of America? I am talking here about the death penalty.

take a look at what you wrote, throwing up the 'misdeeds' of America at us:

http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2005/12/german_soccer_u.html#comment-11949895

I am not 'blaming' you.. I am just saying 'wie du mir, so ich Dir'.
your own words.. you bring up hiroshima, korea, vietnam and iraq..
BTW I notice you never ANSWERED my post that I wrote in regard to the post above. Why?

@Zachar1as

"No killing is allowed, if it is killing your neighbor, or you becouse you had killed your neighbor."

If you are bringing up the Bible, then its apparent yor never read the old Testament. Over the years the translations from hebrew-greek-latin-today, the original commandment was "Thou shall not murder", but I digress.

>>"The death penalty was designed to shock all criminals, but it looks like it shocks only the normal citizen and not the criminals."

A typical specimen of his type. When you call him for the hypocritical moralistic hand waving that's now become so nauseatingly familiar, he's completely incapable of responding to the substance of the criticism. He just rattles on with more of the same. He doesn't want to look at the anti-American skeleton hanging in Germany's closet. Too scary! Too ugly! So he MUST pretend this is a debate about the death penalty. There he's in his comfort zone. There he can trot out all of his hackneyed moralistic arguments and pretend anti-Americanism doesn't exist.

BTW, outstanding leftist American blogger Josh Marshall makes some excellent points about the European/American divide on the death penalty.

Zachar1as,

"To all who means that you can get easily the peace nobel price, show it me. Let a friend nominate you and then get the price and show me a picture of you and the price...."

You're wrong again. Tookie Williams did not "get" the nobel peace prize. He was simply nominated and it is indeed easy to nominate someone.

I'll repeat, because you seem to have missed it the first time...

Tookie Williams did not get the Nobel Peace Prize. He was not awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. He is a not a Nobel Peace Prize recipient.

OK?

Zachar1as,

"There is a difference between arrest and death panelty."

So? Is that supposed to convince me of something? You'll have to do better than that. Your argument was that the death penalty is wrong because the government shouldn't be allowed to do something it doesn't allow its citizens to do (kill). I showed you why that was a fallacy. Show me a logical argument and I'll consider it.

Anyway, this is not a death penalty debate. This is about the anti-American German media and its lionization of a murderous criminal. In fact that media has so brainwashed you, Zachar1as, that you actually believe that Tookie Williams, brutal murderer of 4 innocent people, was a Nobel Peace Prize winner.

This site is ostensibly all about fair and objective reporting, something many of us agree is sorely lacking in the mainstream German press. To my understanding, this site is also in favor of improved cross-Atlantic relations (a good start for which would be fair and objective reporting in the German press).

Ray D. explains to Zachar1as in admirable clarity exactly how the poster is missing the whole point of the lack of such reporting in the case at hand. Nicely done, Ray D.

Then we have Helian, attacking in the usual manner the latest commentor with the temerity to raise an objection. "A typical specimen of his type . . . hypocritical moralistic hand waving that's . . . nauseatingly familiar . . . incapable of responding to the substance of the criticism." What's the type, Helian ? Someone struggling through a language barrier to make a few counterpoints only to be blasted by you.

And Helian further objects to Zachar1as' " . . . blatant example of hate peddling . . ." In fact, Helian is incensed, ". . . we've had a belly full of hate mongering fobbed off as 'objective criticism.'"

A question for Helian: three of the first four posters ("The Germans prefer gas", "the same animals who killed millions in Auschwitz . . . massacred in Namibia", "proves once again the efficiency of Goebbels nephews") blithely flip out some rather blatant comments that, in my book, edge rather more closely to hate-mongering than anything Zachar1as wrote. Any outrage left for them ?

Cheers,

Zachar1as,

The Old Testament makes a distinction between -murder- (unlawful killing by individuals or groups) and lawful killing in warfare and proper judicial execution.

Zachar1as wrote:

--Oh yeah, I can hear it.... all bad boys will learn from that.... off course.... you have the death penalty so long and since you have it in your country the criminality was getting down, shure.
It is proved that the criminal rate not get down with death penalty.--

--

Mebbe, mebbe not, via Capt Quarters:

CQ reader Jeff Norris also sends this link by e-mail from The Atlantic Monthly, which covers a Brookings Institute study that surprisingly finds that each execution deters eighteen potential murders:

Support for capital punishment is, of course, usually associated with the political right. But the lead author of a new paper making what might be termed the "big government" case for the death penalty is the noted liberal scholar Cass Sunstein. The paper draws in part on a study conducted at Emory University, which found a direct association between the reauthorization of the death penalty, in 1977, and reduced homicide rates. The Emory researchers' "conservative estimate" was that on average, every execution deters eighteen murders. Sunstein and his co-author argue that this calculus makes the death penalty not just morally licit but morally required. A government that fails to make use of it, they write, is effectively condemning large numbers of its citizens to death—a sin of omission like failing to protect the environment or to provide adequate health care. "If each execution is saving many lives," they conclude, "the harms of capital punishment would have to be very great to justify its abolition, far greater than most critics have heretofore alleged."

@Zachar1as - "I wasnt born at this time, so I can talk about that issue and I can only get uppset. I can uppset for that what you had said and about the death penalty."

Other than the Germany of that time, other nations never had a death penalty for non-crimes such as draft-dodging or listening to enemy radio. For the Nazis your comments on this blog would have been your death warrant, but there are countries that never had the application of the death penalty extended beyond crimes that are worse than the death penalty itself.

If you agree with the Pope on this issue rather than with the Americans, such as I do, the first thing necessary to roll back the death penalty is to criticise its dispoportionate application in many other places in the world than the United States.

It's not George W. Bush who comes to Berlin, fails the diplomatic protocol like a confirmed drunkard, and then stands near Angela Merkel to justify his country's death penalty for drug trafficking to the international public. That was the Prime Minister of Singapore who did this just a few days ago, and nobody stood up to lecture him that it's not drugs that kill people, it's people that kill people.

If our Austrian friends ( aren't there some riots going on there now - I get so confused about the world since I am only a dumb american after all : ) ) managage to rename Arnold Schwartenegger Stadium as Tookie Williams Field then I agree we should rename the renowned Yankee Stadium in honor of that famous Yankee Manager from 1947-48 Bucky Harris ( aka Stanley Raymond Harris ) - winner of the 1947 World Series

What better way to honor this fine man - this Bronx BOMBER in local vernacular - than with the new Yankee Stadium being named

BOMBER HARRIS STADIUM

-----------------------------------

On another note - I see that a new face, Zacharais, has made some comments

First - I really dislike any knee-jerk cracks about how "you Germans gas them" or such - c'mon guys - give it a little rest

As to Zachs point here on why Speigel didn't show the victims of Tookie

"About Spiegel Online, I think they had sayed that Tookie had killed 4 ppl. They cant show ppl with blood flooding faces. If it would be so, the magazine would be rated for 18."

Well well - thats ONE explanation I suppose - of course its complete BULLSHIT

I found this to be very interesting for comparison

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,371411,00.html

( MY COMMENTARY IN CAPS )

From August 25th 2005

This article has been provided by Salon.com as part of a special agreement with SPIEGEL INTERNATIONAL. In return, our colleagues in San Francisco will publish selected articles from Der Spiegel on their Web site at:
Salon.com

The Photos Washington Doesn't Want You To See

By Gary Kamiya

The grim reality of Iraq rarely appears in the American press.

( AS THE GRIM REALITY OF WHAT HAS LED TO A CONVICTS EXECUTION NEVER APPEARS IN THE GERMAN PRESS )

A photo gallery reveals the war's horrible human toll.


This is a war the Bush administration does not want Americans to see.

( WE WON'T SHOW THE IMAGES OF TOOKIES VICTIMS BECAUSE THEY DETRACT FROM THE MAIN POINT - THE USA IS EVIL AND BACKWARD )


From the beginning, the U.S. government has attempted to censor information about the Iraq war, prohibiting photographs of the coffins of U.S. troops returning home and refusing as a matter of policy to keep track of the number of Iraqis who have been killed. President Bush has yet to attend a single funeral of a soldier killed in Iraq.

( NO BIAS HERE - NOTHING TO SEE FOLKS - MOVE ALONG )


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Photo Gallery

Click here to view the accompanying photo gallery on Salon.com. But first a few words of warning: these pictures are extremely graphic and disturbing.


( BUT HOW CAN THIS BE ZACH - IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO SHOW THIS KIND OF DISTURBING IMAGES ISN'T IT? HAS YOUR BULLSHIT METER GONE OFF THE DIAL YET? )


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To be sure, this see-no-evil approach is neither surprising nor new. With the qualified exception of the Vietnam War, when images of body bags appeared frequently on the nightly news, American governments have always tightly controlled images of war.

( AND DIDN'T VIETNAM TURN OUT SO WELL FOR EVERYONE - ESP THE CAMBODIANS AND VIETNAMESE WHO DIDN'T LOVE UNCLE HO )


There is good reason for this. In war, a picture really is worth a thousand words. No story about a battle, no matter how eloquent, possesses the raw power of a photograph. And when it comes to war's ultimate consequences -- death and suffering -- there is simply no comparison: a photo of a dead man or woman has the capacity to unsettle those who see it, sometimes forever.

( THE SAME IS TRUE IN MATTERS OF CRIME AND PUNISHMENT - CLEARLY SPIEGAL UNDERSTANDS THIS AND SO AVOIDS ANY PICTURES OF TOOKIES VICTIMS SINCE THEY WOULD CAUSE HIS SUPPORT TO FALL AND MAKE HIS LAWFUL EXECUTION MORE UNDERSTANDABLE TO MANY PEOPLE - "if he did this to my daughter I would..." - CAN'T HAVE THE PROLES GETTING TO MUCH DETAIL ABOUT SUCH THINGS - BETTER TO KEEP IT SIMPLE
THE USA IS EVIL FOR KILLING THIS MAN! )

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The reluctance of American publications to run shocking images contrasts with the European press. "In my experience and in conversations with other people who've been doing this a lot longer than me, American publications shy away from extremely graphic material, compared to European ones," says Prothero. "I don't know whether the American audience reacts more strongly against seeing that over the breakfast table. I do know, anecdotally, that many very talented photographers, on staff, have taken pictures that have not run in magazines or newspapers. Maybe it's not a conscious decision but American publications very much shy away from showing casualties of U.S. troops on the ground. I think they're afraid the American public will freak out on them for showing dead American boys."

( BUT EUROPEAN PUBLICATIONS DO RUN SUCH PICTURES )


Strangely, SPON didn't do any reporting on the death sentence carried out last week of an Australian transporting herion in Singapore. Sinapore voraciously boasts the death sentence even for drugs violation. The person in question was sentenced 3 years ago and is not dead. Williams, on the other hand, had been on death row since 1981 - had had numerous apeals, etc.

Furthermore, Singapore leads the world for death sentences per capita - still not a word from SPON on this.

As others have already echoed, the real issue here is that SPON ONLY takes issue with something that America does. It hasn't any problem with Singapore, China, Cuba, et al that have a history of the death penalty...

"Oh - so America wants to be like Cuba now and China now - they should have higher standards!"

Channelling Euro-Moonbat standard response to pointing out the hypocrisy of Euro total focus on American "crimes" and lack of interest in actual human rights abusers ( like Sudan ) in the world

Just thought I would save them the time : )

James:
Strangely, SPON didn't do any reporting on the death sentence carried out last week of an Australian transporting herion in Singapore.
...
Furthermore, Singapore leads the world for death sentences per capita - still not a word from SPON on this.


James, sorry but you're wrong:

SPIEGEL ONLINE, Dec 01: "Heikler Besuch im Kanzleramt", dealing with the visit of Singapore's premier and his announcement that there won't be any mercy for Australian Nguyen Tuong Van.
SPIEGEL ONLINE, Dec 02: "Australier wegen Drogenbesitzes hingerichtet", dealing with the hanging of 25-years-old Nguyen Tuong Van.
SPIEGEL ONLINE, Dec 04: "Todesstrafe: Ein Mann für letzte Stunden", starting with "The authoritarian city state Singapore holds the world record on death penalties..."
SPIEGEL (printed edition), Dec. 05: "Viel Arbeit für den Henker", which translates to "a lot of work for the hanger", about death penalties in Singapore. This seems to be the same as the online version above (Dec 04), both not available online for free.

Vic,

I know it's undiplomatic of me to be so blunt but it's the only response I can think of at the moment. You must be from the dumbest state in the country (assuming you're talking about the USA, which I believe you are). Here's your quote:

"I happen to live in one [of] the states that abolished the death penalty (120 years ago). I can tell you that opposition to the death penalty is not a phenomenon of the "looney left" as you say. There is widespread consensus here among conservatives and liberals that the death penalty is unconstitutional..."

Since the death penalty is specifically provided for in the Constitution it's pretty hard to make the argument that it's unconstitutional. To requote the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (from my post above), "No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law". You can't get much clearer than that.

If you or your co-staters want to argue that the death penalty is not good policy, or is morally indefensible, or bad on some other grounds, go ahead. But spare us the unconstitutional argument. Anyone who can read can see it's hogwash. Surely you're not surrounded by that many illiterates.

Zachar1as - There is a basic problem of criminal punishment that if you have already hit the maximum punishment and commit another crime, what can they do to you? Advocates of the death penalty solve this by killing the criminal. There is zero risk of further crimes once execution is handed out. Opponents of the death penalty must come up with an answer that solves the problem. As far as I can tell, they never do.

Stanley Williams is responsible for the murder of thousands of people as he helped create and sustain one of the great criminal organizations in the United States, the Crips gang. He was caught and convicted of only four of those murders. Post conviction, he apparently committed other crimes. Assuming that there had been no death penalty and he was already serving life in prison without parole, what should have been the punishment for those further crimes? Do anti-death penalty advocates take the moral responsibility of guards and fellow prisoners dying in escape attempts to get these people out of jail? I have not noticed it.

Those who lionize Stanley Williams and wish to name stadiums after him either have no idea of the damage this person caused and never took responsibility for or they are operating under a moral code that is simply shameful.

@Rofe

>>”To my understanding, this site is also in favor of improved cross-Atlantic relations”

A worthy cause.

>>”And Helian further objects to Zachar1as' ‘ . . . blatant example of hate peddling . . .’”

Are we to understand that you want to “promote understanding” with pathetic misrepresentations and lies like this? This quote obviously refers to hate peddling by the editors of SPON, not Zachar1as.

>>”Then we have Helian, attacking in the usual manner the latest commentor with the temerity to raise an objection.”

For the last ten years we have seen an unprecedented hate campaign in the European media directed at the United States. In the case of SPON, this campaign has been quite openly motivated by greed, based on the conclusion that anti-American hate sells in Germany. I’m sorry, but I don’t agree that we can promote “improved cross-Atlantic relations,” by smiling or pretending nothing has happened every time we are kicked in the balls. Hate begets hate, and hostility begets hostility. That’s a simple fact of life, and to pretend otherwise would be dishonest. We Americans will never “promote international understanding” by smiling meekly and attempting to engage our avowed and bitter enemies in polite conversations. It won’t work. Hatred of the United States practically defines the world view of these people, and the chances that they will be impressed by timid smiles and polite attempts to reason with them are vanishingly small. They will not relent in their hatred until the United States curls up into a ball and dies. I see absolutely no point in responding politely to such people. On the contrary, if we really want to “promote improved cross-Atlantic relations,” we need to start getting in their faces, and that includes their dupes and apologists, whether they act out of actual malice, or mere stupidity. We must stop pretending that the United States is a big, fuzzy teddy bear that will always smile and forgive. On the contrary, in the end we will only truly be able to promote friendship and understanding by frankly, sharply, and clearly rejecting anti-American hate mongering in all its manifestations. People of good will in Germany and the rest of Europe will never be motivated to address the festering infection of anti-Americanism if we simply smile and pretend there is no problem. They will never feel any urgency to root out the evil among them if we pretend that all of our differences can be solved by polite conversations with people who are our malicious and bitter enemies, and who yearn for our destruction. We must make it clear that, eventually, we will requite hate with hate, and hostility with hostility. If it comes to that, we will at least have the satisfaction of knowing that it wasn’t we who threw down the gauntlet.

If you want to take issue with the substance of what I’ve said above, I’ll be glad to respond. However, this thread is not about me, and I will not respond to further ad hominem attacks, here or elsewhere.

The real test of those who assert that their criticism of the execution of Williams was based on opposition to the death penalty will come when the executions of John William King and Lawrence Russell Brewer come due. The NAACP, normally opposed to capital punishment, ran political ads in 2000 which falsely claimed that then-governor George W Bush had prevented them from getting the punishment they deserved.

@Kcom:

“Since the death penalty is specifically provided for in the Constitution it's pretty hard to make the argument that it's unconstitutional. To requote the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (from my post above), "No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law". You can't get much clearer than that.”

Just a legal technicality! Yes, you quote the Fifth Amendment correctly. However, for the first 100 years of our nation's history, the Fifth Amendment was interpreted to mean that the Federal Government .... "No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law". The individual states could do to people what the heck they wanted. This is what protected slavery for 100 years.

The Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which was passed shortly after the Civil War, fixed things. The Fourteenth Amendment specifically prohibits states from not giving all citizens equal protection under law.


@ Vic, Zachar1as and all:

I was able to convert my German wife to being pro death penalty by recommending the book “Helter Skelter.” It was written by the prosecutor who put Charles Manson behind bars for the brutal slaying of Sharon Tate, the wife of Roman Polanski, and 8 other people.

Manson fancied himself as a hippy guru. He had a following of a dozen young people, mostly young women. Manson belived that John Lennon's "Helter Skelter" was a call for a world race war, black against white. Manson thought he would trigger this race war by killing a few rich Hollywood types and making the crime sceen appear that black people committed the crime.

Manson told the prosecutor after he was sent to prison for life that “he would have a great time in prison.” There is plenty of sex and drugs in prison to keep him happy for the rest of his life.

Judging by the late Tookie William's body building skills, I would say that the same is true today.

The Muslim that stabbed Holland's most well known victim, Van Gogh, is now in prison. It is not certain how long he will remain there. When he gets out, he may decide to kill another person that he disagrees with. The death sentence that the new victim recieves will be a gift from the gentle europeans that release this animal.

It is certain that Tookie Williams will not kill another person.

@George M

Here's the pertinent and parallel part of the 14th Amendment that applies the same standard to the states (passed almost 80 years later and reaffirming the same concept):

"nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

Hauntingly familiar, isn't it?

Like I said, people can argue all they want that we shouldn't use the death penalty, the can argue all they want (if they wish to) that we should change the Constitution to outlaw the death penalty, but what they shouldn't do is argue the point that the death penalty is unconsitutional. Since it's spelled out in two different places in black and white in the Constitution and specifically covers both state and federal governments they might as well argue Congress is unconstitutional, too, because it's also in the Constitution.

What puzzles me the most about these comments is the failure of so many of you to see that is little convincing to proclaim racial prejudices stating that a certain people is a bunch of prejudiced racists.

To comment the article myself: The difference between North Korea and China on the one hand and the US on the other is that no one denies a quite decent lack of "Rechtsstaatlichkeit" (rule of law) in the former countries. Not even the German media you were tought to hate so much (and which in most parts I hate myself, yet for other reasons). The US on the opposite are considered a civilized country (whatever you are told in this blog) and such a country putting revenge before justice is what makes this such an issue in the German media because it goes beyond comprehension for us bunch of self-righteous racists.

I know that this will hardly convince you as you will most probably believe what you want to believe but at least I tried.

Helian, you are correct. This thread is not about you or me or any one of us individually (begging the question, of course, of why you attack so often in such a personal manner). But I think our exchange gets to a much broader point that deserves discussion (with the kind indulgence of David and Ray D.).

First, however, the issue regarding my "pathetic misrepresentations and lies". On the one hand, I understand Helian's pique. I did, in fact, misquote Helian (Zachar1as' ‘ . . . blatant example of hate peddling . . .’”) when making my point. It was a misreading and unintentional on my part but very sloppy nonetheless. Apologies to one and all, in particular to Helian.

On the other, I can really only chuckle at Helian's injured dignity as the result of my 'ad hominem attacks'. Helian, would you sincerely care to deny that you attacked Zachar1as directly and called him a hate mongerer ?

Perhaps a few more quotes, more carefully proofed this time, from your own post might refresh your memory:

"This is the usual reaction (a Zathar1as quote) we get from the hate peddlars . . ."

"The problem with people like Zachar1as is that so many of them actually believe their own cant."

"Zachar1as, shedding torrents of crocodile tears . . . showers us with the usual pious platitudes. Get a clue, Zachar1as."

So, yes, I misquoted. My point, however, is completely on the mark and in no way ad hominem.

But my misquote and Helian's attack on Zathar1as aside, let me address Helian's larger point, i.e. that in-your-face confrontation is the only way to deal with folks like Zathar1as. Helian, you oppose the use of torture in no uncertain terms. Would you ever be the least swayed, not to mention convinced, by someone confronting you on that topic using the very same tactics you propose ? I think not. Why, then, would you insist on using those tactics against folks like Zathar1as, who in my estimation is far from a hate peddler. Any truly recalcitrant stooges aren't going to be convinced by anything anyone here says anyway. But folks who remain open to reasonable arguments reasonably presented aren't going to be anything other than alienated by in-your-face. Counterproductive, in my mind.

And even if one buys into the in-your-face approach, wouldn't the evenhanded application be a lot more useful in establishing the integrity of one's position, i.e. how can one ignore the more blatant examples of hate peddling on his own side of the fence ?

Last, talk about mischaracterizations. No one - not me, at least - said a thing about getting all fuzzy and forgiving. Lay out the facts, time and again if need be, to state your case. Not as emotionally satisfying, perhaps, as in-your-face, but in the long run far more effective. And that, as I understand the goal of this site, is what we're after - a long-term shift in German perceptions of what their own media is feeding them.

Apologies for running on at length. Thanks David and Ray D.

Cheers,

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