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During a game in Germany's 2nd soccer league ..... fans ..... showed a banner with "JUDEN" inscription. The encircled "D" in "JUDEN" is a reference to the Dresden soccer team. The banner is obviously meant to be a grave insult ..... [Read More]

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Comments

On the other hand...
Its exact that what these idiots want: get a platform in the media ... if possible worldwide ...
Are you really sure they should get it? Possibly with interviews? And big explanations what they have "thought" when made that poster? Does it give anybody satisfaction to hear their brainless statements?

And should every kid that follows for some month a wrong path until it learns how stupid it was get that platform in the media?

I think we all are better off, if certain things don't get a worldwide audience. If everybody, especially the media, would just ignore them, there would be less apery and these people loose their interest because they miss their aims...

Conclusion: If you get the opposite effect of what you want ... why blame the media if they only for once make the right thing?!

@Thade: Its exact that what these idiots want: get a platform in the media ... if possible worldwide ...
Are you really sure they should get it?

Yes, they should. This kind of filthy racism should be exposed at every opportunity for the filthy racism that it is. If allowed to remain underground, as it has been for the past 40 years or more in other places in Europe, it festers and eventually boils over into lies unchallenged by the local people... which is exactly what allowed to Holocaust to occur.

Conclusion: If you get the opposite effect of what you want ... why blame the media if they only for once make the right thing?!

I don't believe for one second that the people involved want to get attention for being filthy racists. They obviously raised that banner in the first place because they believed it was bright and clever... and possibly funny. They NEED to be shown exactly how UNbright and UNclever and UNfunny they are. And that would take a huge media shout-- which is mysteriously missing from the German media.

@Thade: Its exact that what these idiots want: get a platform in the media ... if possible worldwide ...
Are you really sure they should get it?

Yes, they should. This kind of filthy racism should be exposed at every opportunity for the filthy racism that it is. If allowed to remain underground, as it has been for the past 40 years or more in other places in Europe, it festers and eventually boils over into lies unchallenged by the local people... which is exactly what allowed to Holocaust to occur.

Conclusion: If you get the opposite effect of what you want ... why blame the media if they only for once make the right thing?!

I don't believe for one second that the people involved want to get attention for being filthy racists. They obviously raised that banner in the first place because they believed it was bright and clever... and possibly funny. They NEED to be shown exactly how UNbright and UNclever and UNfunny they are. And that would take a huge media shout-- which is mysteriously missing from the German media.

OOps... sorry about the double post. The system claimed that my connection timed out.

Achtung Juden! Germans are scapegoating you again and Iranians are building nukes to rocket at Tel Aviv. Look for a German-Iranian Axis in the near future. Israelis should haul their rubble-bouncing thermonuclear weapons out of storage, in preparation for the Endlosung (i.e., the final solution).

I know others may strongly disagree with the sentiment, but I used to find it amusing back in the 70s and 80s when a few bored young hoods could get worldwide headlines by painting a few swastikas on Jewish gravestones. I thought at the time (and still do) that it would be best to ignore such events in the press as long as local officials pursued the matter.

The sign in the picture above is another matter entirely. We are not talking about a few kids anonymously slinking around on a whim in a graveyard here, but a group of people (who appear to have gotten some fairly good seats) at a public event, who knew they would be seen by thousands and possibly millions of people and who clearly spent a lot of time and effort in the construction of their display. It might just be my imagination, but the black background of the poster and the style of the letters seems to me an intentional association with NS propaganda.

The geniuses who created and displayed the poster are no doubt expressing long and deeply held sentiments, but ten years ago they would not have pulled such a stunt. I believe that the German (and international) media have played a large role in emboldening these slugs to come out of hiding and display their vulgar sentiments.

This incident is astounding and newsworthy. One has to suspect that the media are not covering it because the media approves of it. You see, if they mention the matter at all, they would (hopefully) be compelled by public opinion to at least express some passing disapproval. The only way to avoid doing so is to ignore the matter.

Sorry, but neither Dresden nor Cottbus belong to Germany.

When I was invited to my wife’s family’s house for dinner for the first time, her 70 year old uncle remarked, “ So, Erika hat einen neuen Bimbo!” I am not blond or California - handsome. I wondered why he thought I was a bimbo. Later, my wife told me that “Bimbo” was the pejorative for a black man...he assumed that I was black...after all, it is a right of passage in Germany for a young woman to seek experiences outside of her race. He didn’t realize that I was her American date!

Racism is at the veneer of all societies. African American’s experience racism every day. Asian and White Americans experience racism in the form of quotas and affirmative action. Turks, Gypsies, Jews and even Germans born in Russia experience prejudice in Germany on an everyday basis.

The issue is transparency. If Germans are going to be overly moral and criticize the handling of: vicious train bombers,(London and Madrid); child murders, (Beslan); or sucicide bombers, I think that it is only natural that we Americans point out the obvious....whether it’s a racist banner at a soccer game or continuing racial unrest in France. You reap what you sow. Europeans and especially Germany, need to examine their own societies before criticizing America.

Someday, when the tough gets going, and Europe needs American protection, Americans will act like Santa Claus....they will be checking their lists to see “who’s been naughty or nice.” Germany, at the present, is not nice.

@George M:
I regret what happened to you. There will always be stupid idiots. Well, I have been called a Nazi in my vacation in foreign countries and also in front of my house by some turkish children. But why ? The same question you´ll probably had in your mind when been called a "bimbo". I´m german but I´m no Nazi. 60% of my colleagues aren´t german and they have never burdened me of anything.

"Turks, Gypsies, Jews and even Germans born in Russia experience prejudice in Germany on an everyday basis."
Maybe... but also take care how these people see Germans, too. Do you know how they behave ? Are only the "Germans" responsible for the problems in society ? No.

"Hmm... just imagine the German media's reaction to a banner insulting blacks during a football game in America... The moral outrage would be beyond description."

What is their reaction to what happens in Italy and Spain with black players? The constant racist taunting at many matches; in Spain almost entire stadiums of people have participated in making "monkey" noises whenever a black player dribbles the ball and when close to the sideline bananas come flying out of the stands.

"Germany's image as organizer of the soccer world championship in 2006 could be tarnished by pictures such as the one shown above."

It is also not going to be helped by what happened in the Bundesliga last weekend (I believe Hamburg vs. Cologne) in which a drum stick was thrown from the crowd and cut an opposing player right next to his eye. When I first saw it I thought he got hit by a rock because of all of the blood.

This is a typical example how once fiery hatespeech uses to evolve into linguistically unassailable allusions that dive under the radar of the political correctness enforcement laws. It's good if the soccer clubs duly realize that they are exposed to the Abu Ghraib effect just like any other political player: the instant proliferation of digital photography is a much stronger corrective force than any shallow political correctness law can ever be.

My first post here, and I must say that my english isnt perfect ;)

@Heinz
You had written:
"Europeans and especially Germany, need to examine their own societies before criticizing America.

Someday, when the tough gets going, and Europe needs American protection, Americans will act like Santa Claus....they will be checking their lists to see “who’s been naughty or nice.” Germany, at the present, is not nice."

No country is perfect, we have mistakes and america has mistakes too.

What do you mean will Santa see on the list when he looks at america? Hiroshima (The first and only thrown atom bomb over a town), Korea, Vietnam, Irak1 and Irak2. This all has happens after WWII. We germans have enough from weapons and war becouse we had lost 2 wars, why dont get the american goverment enough of wars?

Ps. I had looked for the word bimbo, this word was formed from german and netherland words (neger) and was used by americans who had shipped african slaves to america (nigger). The word neger or nigger is an latin word and means black.

@Zachar1as
your english is great, your logic and history are not..

1. Hiroshima.. was not the ONLY thrown atom bomb, Nagasaki was the second city destroyed..
The use of the atomic bomb was done only after much soul searching by Truman. He believed -
as many historians do - that by using these weapons the war could be ended earlier, thus
SAVING more lives than the two bombs took. Was he right? I think so.. but
that is not an easy question.
Also remember that the Americans were obsessed with developing the bomb first because they
feared 'the führer' would invent it first. So don't finger wag.. and don't treat the
issue so black and white.. remember nur George Bush denkt schwarz weiss

2. Korea.. was a UN sanctioned war. Germany and Europe treats the UN as the world's moral authority. - higher than the pope, higher than GOD.. did the UN goof on this one?
If so, does that mean the UN is NOT morally infallible, as the Europeans lead us to believe?
If yes, does that mean they also could have been wrong on .... the attack on Iraq in 2003
(ignoring the fact they passed resolution 1441)

3. Vietnam - Yes, Vietnam was controversial.. but the question you have to ask yourself is..
why was the US there? was it blood for rice or bamboo? or did the US want Lebensraum in southeast asia?
NO. The reason the US was there is because the US and SOuth Vietnam had a defense pact.
The US obligated itself to South Vietnam's defense. Naturally the US could have said..
we ignore the treaty, you are on your own. Now ask yourself..
what would Europe do if the US ignored its NATO obligations? I can hear the self righteous screaming already!!!

4. Iraq 1 - the question you need to ask yourself.. who started Iraq 1?
SADDAM. and Iraq 1 I believe was also a UN sanctioned war (remember, they have moral authority!!!)
It was MULTILATERAL as well. Germany also helped out with this war, if only in the form of billions of dollars.. SOOOOOO - Do you still want to wag your finger at the USA?

5. Iraq 2. There is no such thing. Saddam signed a CEASE FIRE agreement.
HOstilities only STOPPED. There was never a peace treaty. It was conditional
- Saddam you keep up your end of the bargain and you stay in power.
NOW - did he keep up the agreements he made under the cease fire? The numerous
UN resolutions (including 1441) seemed to think he did NOT. and remember the UN
IS the world's moral authority.
SO - I agree with you the 2003 attack on Iraq was controversial. One could argue
it should not have been done. But don't paint it as though Saddam was the innocent victim
and the Amis are the Tätervolk.. Black white thinking again there and we both know only GEORGE W does that!!!

nice try.. your english is great, work on your facts now!



@Zachar1as

you said
We germans have enough from weapons and war becouse we had lost 2 wars, why dont get the american goverment enough of wars?

OK I can accept that.. but then why did the Friedenskanzler want to sell weapons to China?
Thought you germans have had enough of weapons... hmmmm?

To LC Mamapajamas and who's interested.
I didn't write that post for fun or without thinking... I gave these statements from my own experience... I was born in Germany and live here since more than 50 years ...
When we were young, starting at about 14 yo we copied as much things as possible from the USA because it was progressive to do that. Elvis haircut; Hoola Hoop; Beach Boys; Hells Angels. And with some friends, when we were 17/18, we were wearing - although very stong forbidden - the WW2-iron-crosses, had a swastika-flag in our "club-room" and tried to get hold on every Nazi-items we could get - because we saw it in the US movies that year and thought: That's freedom !!! Do exact what is forbidden - fight the authorities.
Actually it was as stupid and brainless as the Juden-Banner above. And we had stress with the local police and the town gov and our parents and teachers.
But there are always some great minds that have their own will and seek provocation to test the limits - especially in a country where everything is so restricted, unfree, and terribly regulated as it is in Germany - and its getting worse every day.

So, I was one summer long in that clique and finally found out that they are not my thing at all - no education, quite primitive - while I liked to play chess, make music, write songs ... so I left and the others closed that brotherhood some 4 - 5 month later.
Most of us are quite successful in business today - others have their jobs or have retired ... actually me, my wife and children, are the only ones you could still call rebels compared to the other "Nazi-stuff-collectors" of that time. We have changed to collect Sportscars (Porsche, Ferrari, De Tomaso) - little show off I could not resist ;-)
To sum it up. We knew that in a town 50 km away there were a bunch of guys who played the same game for some month... and later we heard it was sort of a little movement - even bankers and policemen we talk to today are still proud that they dared to join ... us illegal but completely unpolitical stupid "imitators".
What I have to add ... We had only 2 TV stations (ARD and ZDF) in Germany then. They were broadcasting from late afternoon until midnight ... that's all ... no internet, radio was a shame and it was not locally organized ...
So no-one outside our area ever knew that there were some "Very Bad Boys" in that town showing off with WW2-items...

Imagine we would have had the same media situation as today... would it had changed anyones life in the world if he would have seen us on TV? (We may have had in advantage - no-one else!)
Today I see lots of young people doing rather similar things ... but in front of a computer. They are playing hundreds of different WW2-Games... collect items, play roles ... until they are fed up and change the genre. WW2 obviously is a great fascination for young people... (and businessmen)

Again: what is the better choice? If 200 million people cannot sleep because they see that guy with his Juden-Flag in the evening news ... or if no-one knows of that "big event" because the media ignored it ... And in 1 - 2 years this clique is broken and the guy has to leave the area for a job somewhere else, becomes a family man and tells his children one day what a hard guy he was in his youth...

Isn't it all a question of balance ???!!!

We tend to overinterpret everything what happens nowadays, because we are all so clever and (self-)educated now ... we have every information we need through the WWW at a click of a button ... hundreds of TV-Stations in dozens of countries have to fill the day with any sort of shit ... we look in every sleeping room in the world ... we write Blogs ... give our comments to everything, wether we really know something about the theme or not ... we always know everything better than the scientists and governments of the world ... and as we all know, Mr. Bush is doing everything wrong and only the (german) media guys know how to run a country ... and the environment would be in a catastrophic condition if we do not warn every day ... and we give advice to people we do not even know and blame everything that does not happen as we would like to see it ...
Brave new world...
For 10 seconds we see during a football match a glimpse on a flag with some crazy words ... and from hundreds and thousands of kilometers away we know everything about that guy who waved it ... we know his social background, his intentions, know what he thinks and does if he's not supporting his team ... and we cry for the media to broadcast this disgusting scene worldwide ... everybody must have seen this scandal ... put the boy into prison ... put him on the electric chair as preventive action ...

Well - with some relaxiation we could see this flag above as a harmless item until the Media and the "Zentralrat der Juden" make it a politicum... and that guy may be a strong bad boy in a group and a nice and friendly guy alone at home... until we criminalize him...
Not more - less media is the answer to the trouble in the world...
Not more - less religion is the answer...
Not more - less nervousness is the answer...
Not every Teenager who plays some silly tricks (we'd call it Dummer-Jungen-Streich)wants conciously insult 20 million jews... he hopes that the world reacts as usual and then if it happens he is happy to have reached his target... that makes him a big guy in his group... and you all want to do him this favor...
Welldone !!! Perhaps you should get yourself some kids; in some years you may be able to understand that.
I am not clearvoyant; but with the creativity that young guy shows, I think he could be a quite successful man in the future. We may see him again one day ... as we saw stone thrower and police-beater Joschka ... the media will handle it for him ... no doubt!
Its always helpful to be involved in a scandal to get rich and famous in todays media world...

I can see your point, but:

And with some friends, when we were 17/18, we were wearing - although very stong forbidden - the WW2-iron-crosses, had a swastika-flag in our "club-room" and tried to get hold on every Nazi-items we could get - because we saw it in the US movies that year and thought: That's freedom !!! Do exact what is forbidden - fight the authorities.

Dont hang anything done in Hollyweird on the US in general. Those are the biggest batch of flakes in the country... actors, directors, producers. Only a tiny minority of them make any sense off screen. Kids do tend to take what's happening in movies to extremes, though. I know that's a given for the impressionable.

However, that banner is something that I find unforgivable for an adult. This is supposed to be someone with a brain. Maybe he IS creative, but I would never hire him. I'd be afraid he'd produce something that would get me sued!

@Zachar1as:
>You had written:
>"Europeans and especially Germany, need to examine their own societies before criticizing America.

>Someday, when the tough gets going, and Europe needs American protection, Americans will act like >Santa Claus....they will be checking their lists to see “who’s been naughty or nice.” Germany, at the >present, is not nice."

No, I did not write that...

Thanks for making a stink about this Medienkritik and of course thanks for the link to my english report on the matter. I hope some of the people who read all the reports were a bit more concerned than the comments here above reflect.

The World Cup is going to take place here in 6 months and such disgusting things are taking place; even if you are not interested in football or dont go to sports events in Germany you should be worried about this; and if you do go then you know this could have happened at a fair few stadiums. The current strategy of combatting hooliganism and fascism at football is a joke at present. The only strategy is to ignore it and pretend its not there and to do anything else fails thought and most importantly will. This is a big topic at the moment and its sad that this thread just generates into others claiming their and holding on to their victimhood. Anyone who looks at that banner and cant say anything else but "I was called a Nazi once on holiday just because I was German" or "We cant discuss this because we should look at the USA first", well mir fehlen die Wörter! The whole world doesnt revolve around you. Hundreds of Cottbus fans use the word for Jew as a deep insult, thousands of Dresden fans are annoyed because they hate being called Jews (not because of anti-Semitism directly annoyed but just because its an insult in their local slang too), the DFB(German football assoc.) does jack shit about it despite powers introduced last week to stop such matches, it was seen live on German TV my a few million and the only people who seem to find it even worth a mention are the BILD Zeitung.

Really this is disgusting. Even though I think that anti-Semitism is strong in Germany (unlike suggested in the post) I admit it is rarely channeled so directly and so hatefully like the banner above. I dont think its too much for people to agree that this is disgusting without a BUT added in and a bitch about the USA or a grab for victimhood.
If you cant do that, if you cant speak out against this sort of thing without any BUTS then i dont have any sympathy for you when insulted on holiday.

Doughnut Boy Andy http://iamadoughnut.blogspot.com/


I think the more interesting point about the (lack of) media outrage is that
--- while it may be a good thing to not give people like this free advertising in the media (if they are trying to ge t a message out, which I don't think they are), or it might be a bad thing, because they are doing it only for local consumption, and need exposure in order to be rooted out ---
it seems that there is no great outcry either for the first reaon above, or because the media would (in view of the soccer WC/WM) like the populace to look nicer than it really is. Which, again, may be a good thing.

The part where Medienkritik comes in is this: Imagine if something like this was happening in the US, and the local media actually kept quiet about it...
Everybody remember the outrage when US media agencies would refer to the participants in fighting in Afg. and Iraq as "we" and "them"? Pfui, they're suppose to be impartial, don't you know? State-controlled, gleichgeschaltete Media, can't you tell?
So yeah, the media may (I'm really not judging that) just be acting in the best interest of the country, but I guess that's OK if that country isn't the USA.

(Even with a local media spectacle about any little non-PC incident in the US, there are lots of accusations that the US press is covering up for the government. With the "conservative" CNN named right after Fox News...)

@Thade:
" although very stong forbidden - the WW2-iron-crosses"
Are you *sure* the iron cross is illegal? (And just what Hollywood movies, other than those about a war, or about contemporary hooligans, would show them? Come to think of it, I guess hooligans it is, that would fit the scene you're describing.)

I guess I should be careful about not packing the Matchbox lowrider on my desk sporting the "xy choppers" (iron-cross-based) emblem with the kids' toys when going to Germany next time. Not to mention all those people wearing shirts and jackets with that sign :)


Addendum:
I'm seeing that appaering right after doughnut-boy Andy's post, mine looks like I'm arguing that it's a good thing to cover this stuff up. I don't mean that. I mean to say that it may be being done with good intentions (i.e. giving the neonazis in question no platform - unlikely, I admit), or with self-serving (make the country not look bad before the WM) intentions. But either way, it's not a good justification for the cover-up...

...such that if it was another (a certain other?) country and their media, the german media would cry foul.

Zachar1as wrote "Ps. I had looked for the word bimbo, this word was formed from german and netherland words (neger) and was used by americans who had shipped african slaves to america (nigger). The word neger or nigger is an latin word and means black."

I don't know what your source is, but it is, to put it mildly, eccentric. And also puzzling: the word "neger" neither looks nor sounds anything like "bimbo". Regardless, the word is not racist in origin. Maybe the word has a different (and racist) origin in German, but not in English--just as 'gift' in English and in German have entirely different meanings. Here are the entries from a few of the more authoritative English dictionaries:

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000:
bimbo
NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. bim·bos
1. Slang A woman regarded as vacuous or as having an exaggerated interest in her sexual appeal.
2. Slang A vacuous person: “a male bimbo … who even has to be tutored … in the clichés that comprise the basic interview” (George F. Will).
ETYMOLOGY: Perhaps from Italian bimbo, baby.

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
Main Entry: bim·bo
Etymology: perhaps from Italian bimbo baby
1 slang , usually disparaging : MAN, WOMAN -- used especially of an attractive but empty-headed person
2 slang : TRAMP 1c

The Oxford English Dictionary:
bimbo
• noun (pl. bimbos) informal, derogatory an attractive but unintelligent or frivolous young woman.
— DERIVATIVES bimbette noun.
— ORIGIN originally in the sense fellow: from Italian, ‘little child’.

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