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» EU Warned Not to Sell Weapons to China from The Foreigner in Formosa
Chinese President Hu Jintao is in Europe, and is trying to get the Europeans to drop the arms embargo they imposed after the Tianamen Square Massacre. In response, an American representative once again warned Europe of sanctions if the embargo [Read More]

» EU Warned Not to Sell Weapons to China from The Foreigner in Formosa
Chinese President Hu Jintao is in Europe, and is trying to get the Europeans to drop the arms embargo they imposed after the Tianamen Square Massacre. In response, an American representative once again warned Europe of sanctions if the embargo [Read More]

Comments

A far as I can see, communist China is as little interested in German weapons as it was in the Hanau plutonium stocks.

The whole thing was a typical Schröder-style PR coup to lure communist China into approving a special German seat at the UN Security Council (as if the liberation of Iraq was a justification to deviate from the goal of a single European seat).

Can anyone please enlighten me which German weapons China actually wants to buy?

(Besides the fact that Taiwan needs slbm-capable subs to defend itself.)

The most amazing and sad thing is that no German "peace supporter" finds any trace of Doppelmoral in this stance. Their total lack of interest in any sort of self-analysis is very discouraging. As long as parts of reality will be regularly ignored, there will be no fair treatment of the US.
When asking decent "peace lovers" why they don't use their sharp analytical skills in criticizing unjustice somewhere else than in the US, the answer is nothing but blank stares. I think I can say for myself that I know why I support or do not support certain ideas. I have given a lot of thought to my convictions. I might be wrong, but I did it. I owe this to my own integrity.
The "peace" folks I know have jumped on a bandwagon where no independent thinking is encouraged. They don't (want to) think outside the media-created box. They surely believe they are independent thinkers, but the uniformity of opinion denies that claim. The thinking is done by the media and "elites". And those folks are content with this.
That's probably one of the reasons why the blogoshpere isn't big in Germany (EU). Most people are happy with what they are fed, they don't ask for more, they don't dream of more, they don't care if there is more for them out there. Americans are far more independent and self-reliant; thus the success of alternative information sources, like blogs. The problem in Germany is not the lack of conservative media outlets, it is the lack of people interested in such media. OTOH, I guess the interest would eventually grow if the truth and facts got out, not truncated and interpreted, but raw and direct. All I have for now is hope. It's not much, but better than nothing.

And leaving open whether an unsolicited offer to revoke the consequence of the Tianamen Square massacre makes Gerhard Schröder worse than the Linkspartei, which in 1989, when it had the choice, chose giving in to the West over a Tianamen Square solution.

Ja mei - wir haben halt auch was Besseres zu tun, als uns um die Zwergstaaten rund um China oder Russland zu kümmern.

Und jetzt hier so zu tun, als würde die deutsche Öffentlichkeit aufgrund einer zurückhaltenden Berichterstattung keine Ahnung von Menschenrechtsverletzungen seitens der russischen Armee oder des chinesischen Parteiapparates haben, geht doch klar an der Realität vorbei.

Jeder halbwegs politisch Interessierte hat Kenntnis davon. Aber wen kümmert es? Weder die russische noch die chinesische Regierung reden davon, Demokratie und Menschenrechte in die Welt tragen zu wollen - also nimmt man es ihnen nicht krumm, wenn sie es zuhaus auch nicht so genau nehmen..

Was wir brauchen sind geölte Wirtschaftsbeziehungen und ertragreiche Exportmärkte - mit mehr Menschenrechten in anderen Ländern wird doch in Deutschland niemand glücklich!

PS: Wer als Ausländer immer noch nicht mitbekommen hat, wem sich unsere Politik als Erstes verpflichtet fühlt, der werfe einen Blick auf folgende Inschrift:

http://www.berlin-tourist-information.de/bilder/sehenswuerdigkeiten/reichstag_07.jpg

There may be some high motives for the lack of protests from the Germans, but let me identify one that is low, but real. Protesting against China's abuses doesn't translate into getting laid.

As usual, Zyme takes the moral low road and cynical, Machiavellian view toward things. Who cares about the rest of humanity as long as we can make money off of them? Words like service, liberty, altruism, faith, freedom, and compassion probably aren't in your vocabulary, are they, Zyme?
Granted, I also believe a good profit motive can solve a lot of problems, but that's apparently where our common ground ends. It's a good thing that there are enough people around who don't think like you. Otherwise, who knows where the world would be today.
Besides that, you completely miss the point. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Germany doesn't care the square root of squat-all about the human condition in China or Chechnya, then they also shouldn't get so excited about a few prisoners in Ghraib with underwear on their heads. But they do. And that is an understatement.
As far as who German politics is supposed to serve -- the dedication on the Reichstag notwithstanding -- I must beg to disagree with you again. IMHO, since the establishment of the all-providing, all-controlling Nanny State in Germany, politics has not served the people, raTHer, it has served the politicians themselves and their deep-pocket special interest groups. Trust me on this one... there is no one in Berlin who is serving YOU.... unless of course, you "made it worth their effort"... you know what I mean?

@ Scout

Wer wird denn gleich ausfällig werden - jetzt nehmen wir erst mal den Fuß vom Gas und wollen schön objektiv bleiben:

Der Parteiapparat Chinas hält für uns doch eine Menge nützlicher Vorteile bereit: Wer sonst könnte ein 1,3 Milliarden Volk bändigen und so konsequent vorantreiben? Würde Europa oppositionelle Strömungen fördern, wäre das nicht nur eine eklatante Einmischung in fremde Angelegenheiten - vielmehr würde darüber hinaus die Stabilität einer ganzen Region gefährdet und das politische Gleichgewicht Asiens weitreichend untergraben werden.

Und was würde ganz konkret anders werden, würden wir Deutsche dieses enge Handelsgeflecht aufbrechen und uns durch kritischen Dialog offen mit der chinesischen Regierung anlegen? Na dann bauen eben in Zukunft französische Architekten ganze Städte und Firmen aus anderen europäischen Ländern erneuern Chinas Infrastruktur - was für ne Perspektive!

Eins scheint dir hingegen nicht klar zu sein: Die historische Dimension deutsch-chinesischer Zusammenarbeit geht weit über die letzten Jahre hinaus. Eine funktionierende Partnerschaft verlangt eben auch gegenseitige Rücksichtnahme und Nachsicht!
Mit den Eigenheiten eines so großen Volkes und Landesgebiets müssen wir uns in Europa nicht herumschlagen - infolgedessen obliegt es uns auch nicht, über die beste Regierungsmethode Chinas zu urteilen.

Hey Zyme,

I specifically checked the comments of this thread to see if you are there - China is always a slam dunk for you. you are incredible, this place would not be the same without you, bud.

how is it going with the bar exam ?

Ray, if you think that a demonstration against China would have been necessary: Why didn´t you organize one? Don´t you have friends in Germany who might have been interested? Why wasn´t David standing there with a sign? Doesn´t he care about human rights in China?

According to your logic, Hu Jintao is much more upright and honest than Bush: Bush invaded Iraq, but he didn´t invade Iran, the filthy hypocrit! Hu Jintao, however, never did anything...
Or, someone who gives $100 to the Salvation Army and nothing to the Red Cross is a hypocrit, and someone who doesn´t donate anything is acting morally superior.

Obviously, this is nonsense.

@Toby

yep, incredible indeed ;-)

A new Axis in the making?

@Zyme: Allow me to paraphrase you slightly....

... Der Machtapparat Iraks hält für uns doch eine Menge nützlicher Vorteile bereit: Wer ausser Saddam könnte ein 40 Millionen Volk bändigen und so konsequent vorantreiben? Würde Europa oppositionelle Strömungen fördern, wäre das nicht nur eine eklatante Einmischung in fremde Angelegenheiten - vielmehr würde darüber hinaus die Stabilität einer ganzen Region gefährdet und das politische Gleichgewicht mittlere Ostens weitreichend untergraben werden.

Und was würde ganz konkret anders werden, würden wir Deutsche dieses enge Handelsgeflecht aufbrechen und uns durch kritischen Dialog offen mit Saddam anlegen? Na dann bauen eben in Zukunft französische Architekten ganze Palasten und Waffenfabriken und Firmen aus anderen europäischen Ländern erneuern Iraks Infrastruktur und Waffenbestände - was für ne Perspektive!

Eins scheint dir hingegen nicht klar zu sein: Die historische Dimension deutsch-irakischer Zusammenarbeit geht weit über die letzten Jahre hinaus. Eine funktionierende Partnerschaft verlangt eben auch gegenseitige Rücksichtnahme und Nachsicht!
Mit den Eigenheiten eines so wichtigen Landesgebiets müssen wir uns in Europa nicht herumschlagen - infolgedessen obliegt es uns auch nicht, über die beste Regierungsmethode Iraks zu urteilen.....

I guess that's the point, isn't it? Duplicity and Doppelmoral from the German side whereever you wish to examine. Only the Americans are fair game... then apparently there are no complications with criticizing another government or playing down the "mutual respect."
As Toby mentioned, we already know you're a big China fan... and that's not the point. The point is the portrayal of China in the German press, and how that same German press treats Bush and the USA. I guess that point was lost on you as part of the "gegenseitige Rücksichtnahme."

@Zyme

As a Chinese I can hardly understand why a democratic country's citizen could become an anti-america or even a pro-china smart ass.

What you said (Wer sonst könnte ein 1,3 Milliarden Volk bändigen und so konsequent vorantreiben?) is really a frequently and systematically repeated doctrine in Chinese media. It's so ironical that you can understand “our party” so well. Some of my Chinese friends are fond of reading books by von Hayek, Havel... and do know that freedom is invaluable. It seems that in contrast to them, you could be a "better" Chinese “citizen” governed by the "best government". And, don't forget to patent your care-about-shit-except-my-purse face.

If you feel "ronery" in Germany, Lieber Genosse, welcome to china. Don't worry, really, we've been told by Mr. Zukang Sha-- the Chinese ambassador to the UN office in Geneva -- that the human rights situation in china is "at least 5 times better than in the US". ( You may check this page for the original words if you can read Chinese: http://www.humanrights-china.org/china/rqgz/200441984817.htm )

@fuchur

My answer is: war is not equal to yelling.

“According to your logic”, Why didn't the EU bring them down? Does it mean, the EU conceives these countries as innocent?

Many germans cannot forgive the US for helping to defeat Nazism, or for helping to force the Communists out of Eastern Europe and Russia. When a citizen craves an authoritarian government, anyone who hands them freedom is an enemy. They will never forgive them for this freedom, this damnable freedom.

For all competition between Germany and France, are we forgetting that there are security interests that require a common European position against China? China is the major player in Africa, and anyone who followed the UN (in-)activity on the Darfur jihad knows without a common approach to civilize the Chinese blood-for-oil policies there is no hope of peace for Sudan in the forseeable future. Without an end to slavery in the heart of Africa there will only be more refugees and more chaos in the Mediterranean, and more appeasement of North-African dictators to keep them out. The best way to stop China from supporting genocidal slavestates in our neighborhood is to stop it from doing the same thing to itself.

Zyme don't panic, Germany can do civilian business with China and contribute to the buildup of a human rights consensus around China at the same time. Just like the U.S. can.

Interesting reports here.

First from "All Headline News"
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7000995132

"Berlin, Germany (AHN) - With Angela Merkel leading Germany's new government with new plans underway, the country is looking to ease the tension between them and their political counterparts in the U.S. after turmoil in their relationship caused by their different standings on the war in Iraq.

The bipartisan coalition deal presented by conservative chancellor-designate Angela Merkel, the country's first woman chancellor, on Saturday emphasized the government's desire to keep Germany in a strong relationship with its European and U.S. partners."

Second from "China Daily"
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-11/12/content_494084.htm

"BERLIN: Visiting President Hu Jintao was assured by top German leaders that the country will continue to push for stronger relations with China despite the change of government.

The assurance came during Hu's separate talks with Chancellor-designate Angela Merkel and outgoing Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder on the second day of his state visit to Germany....."

"...Merkel told Hu that she wanted to keep strong economic and political ties with China.

Hu invited Merkel to visit China and Merkel told him she would "certainly soon, and very gladly come." "

Double standard is: One great article in the WAZ (Westdeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung www.waz.de) about the situation in China, that there are hundreds of thousands of people in prison without the right of defense up to 4 years. I don't find the article online. I wonder why. I read it in the newspaper on November 12, 2005: Kritik ist nicht erlaubt by Jutta Lietsch. But that is all. No angry commentary, no bad names for Hu Jintao, not 1000 of weblogs about his politics, not a second article about the prisoners or a third like they did with Guantanamo. Here we could read 1000000000000000 articles about the theme and they still go on. Really, Zyme, the German public KNOWS about the situation in China, the human rights violation? If so, what happened to all these people who get wild talking about Guantanomo, with their anger, hate and disgust, including bad words for Bush and the Republicans, but nothing against China? "Yeah, there are human rights violations in China, so what?" Exactly as you said. This is a common attitude. But why do the same people care so much for the human rights of people in Guantanomo? Articles, weblogs, books about this. Hate for Bush is the reason. The standard answer: Because they espected more from the US. This does not explain the hate.

I want neutral reports about the situation in the world, about China AND the US. No hate in articles about China and also not about the US. I don't complain about less hate towards China. I complain about hate towards the US.

Are German people already so used to these kind of articles, that they can't realize it anymore?

"In Deutschland kommt es bei gegenseitigen Staatsbesuchen immer wieder zu innenpolitischen Diskussionen. Dabei geht es um die Frage, ob und in welcher Form die Menschenrechtsverletzungen angesprochen werden sollen. Dabei werden größte Widersprüche seitens der europäischen Außenpolitik hingenommen, um beispielsweise Geschäfte in China zu sichern: So konnte der französische Präsident Jacques Chirac einen Vertrag über den Verkauf von Airbus-Flugzeugen in China abschließen, woraufhin ein chinesischer Vertreter verkündete, dass der Vertrag nur deswegen zustande gekommen sei, weil Frankreich und Deutschland China in der Menschenrechtsfrage "entgegengekommen" seien. Deutschland hatte nämlich in dem Jahr auf der 58. Menschenrechtskommission keine Resolution gegen China eingebracht, wie es die USA, die damals nicht teilnehmen durften, üblicherweise getan hatten.

Ferner wurde von der rot-grünen Regierung eine U-Boot-Lieferung an Taiwan mit der Begründung, dass man keine Waffen in Krisengebiete liefere, unterbunden. Im Gegensatz dazu hat Gerhard Schröder aber Ende des Jahres 2003 der Volksrepublik China Unterstützung für die Aufhebung des EU-Waffenembargos zugesagt, obwohl China keine zwei Wochen zuvor Taiwan mit einer Invasion drohte. Das EU-Waffenembargo wurde nach dem Tian'anmen-Massaker gegen China verhängt.

Am 23. März 2004 kam es in dieser Angelegenheit zu einem Konflikt mit den USA. Der US-amerikanische Botschafter wurde einbestellt, um gegen die Pläne der USA, die VR China bei der Jahressitzung der UN-Menschenrechtskommission in Genf zu verurteilen, Protest einzulegen."
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/China#Rechtssystem

Oh, I wouldn't get all upset about Zyme. Zyme's been agitating for another Austrian 'anschluss'.

Poor Zyme.

It's already happened. It's called the EU.

And. You. Are. Screwed.

Offensichtlich bin ich nicht arm genug, um den Unterschied zwischen einem Staatenbund und einem Anschluss zu verkennen.

Oder andere als arm zu bezeichnen..

Aber ich will nicht verhehlen, wer die besten Karten für die Premiere hat :)

I fully agree, except for one point. We often see pictures of politicians shaking hands and being friendly with each other. Like Rumsfeld and Saddam or Chirac and Saddam or this: http://www.voanews.com/english/images/ap_china_rice_Hu_Jintao_10jul05_eng_210.jpg .... None of these pictures really prove anything, only that the people shown are not deadly enemies, however they can still be enemies. Or they will become enemies in the future. Being friendly is mainly diplomacy, no matter how evil and inacceptable another politician may be.

Unfortunately most Europeans are not honest enough to admit or able or willing to see that China connections are absolutely economically motivated and have little to do with world peace and friendship of different people/cultures.

Therefore it is absolutely wrong and based on bias to give European politics idealistic connotation and American politics only egoistic connotations. At least, Americans are engaged in spreading freedom and democracy in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. Also it is not very useful and promoting world peace to ignore the Taiwan conflict or to blame Americans for Iran's nuclear ambitions because American policy was too aggressive. To help most Europeans learn that idealism is not about securing a status quo (as the opposite of aggression) but about change and reform is the work for generations to come. Most people who learn that individual rights are not there by nature or granted but exist because of people who promote and protect them can understand that. But maybe it is quite human to take things for granted you never really had to work and fight for...

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