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» Update: Blogger Kampagne gegen Beteiligung deutscher Unternehmen an Messe im Sudan kommt ins Rollen! from www.extrablog.de
Gemeinsam erreicht man mehr! Schon kurz nachdem ich in extrablog und Emails über die Geschäftemacherei deutscher Unternehmen im Sudan und deren Unterstützung durch das Wirtschaftsministerium berichtete, erklärten sich Neokomplott und Atlantic Review be... [Read More]

» First Hussein, Now al-Bashir from Joe's Dartblog
The good folks over at Davids Medienkritik are doing what they do best: exposing double standards in the media. This time they are tackling the German government's dealings with the deadly Sudanese government; dealings which evidently include Berlin-sp... [Read More]

» Welcome to all new readers from Atlantic Review
Welcome to all Instapundit readers, who came to this site due to Prof. Reynolds' highlighting of the German-American Carnival, which the Atlantic Review organizes with GM's Corner. A big welcome also to all readers of GM's Corner, David's Medienkritik, Ex [Read More]

» Genocide: U.S. calls for more sanctions against Sudan, but Germany sees business opportunities from Atlantic Review
UPDATE 12/02/05: FirstDavids Medienkritik featured this post, and then the Wall Street Journal criticized Germany's participation in the Khartoum trade fair as well. If you are not a WSJ subscriber, you can read an excerpt of the WSJ article at this [Read More]

» Europe's Moral Outrage from Atlantic Review
The Wall Street Journal argues today that Europe cares about human rights only when it can criticize the United States. The Review Outlook piece describes Europe's moral outrage over alleged CIA prisons and secret flights of terror suspe [Read More]

Comments

Das Geld macht Frei.

Clement's and Müntefering's locusts in Sudan...

US trade with Sudan:
January-September 2005

Exports: 61.4 million dollars
Imports: 10.0 million dollars
Balance: 51.4 million dollars

Source: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c7320.html#2005

Sudan's total foreign trade amnounts to 300-500 million dollars.
So don't forget to write to your US departments as well

While these may cover some of the same material, more on the fun the Germans & there pals(of course you can’t to leave out the Chinese) are having in the Sudan & elsewhere in Africa, here, here & here.

The Fwench, slimy SOB's that they may be, get far too much credit because the real brains, the drivers of Eurabia, are sitting and directing from the backseat in Berlin(shhhhhhh, please keep it down. We don‘t want to disturb the sensibilities of the Fwench).


@Querdenker: Nice try, but you might want to dig a bit deeper. Take a look here:

U.S. Exports to Sudan from 2000 to 2004 By 5-digit End-Use Code
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/product/enduse/exports/c7320.html

As you'll see, the small amount of U.S. exports to Sudan were almost exclusively food and drugs -- in other words, humanitarian supplies. Nothing hypocritical here.

Here's some additional information for your reading pleasure (the link leads to a PDF):

http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/sanctions/t11sudan.pdf

Hi Querdenker,
Thanks for the link. I too found that interesting, so I Googled "US trade with Sudan" and the link you mentioned was the first one that came up. Wow, you really put some research into that one.

Anyway, I was indeed intrigued, so I dug a little deeper. According to the U.S. Dept. of Commerce Trade Stats (http://tse.export.gov/) the U.S. Exports to Sudan for 2004 (dollar value) consisted of (drum roll please)

CEREALS...................................................................................23,239,855 34.1 %
ANIMAL OR VEGETABLE FATS, OILS ETC. & WAXEs..................15,227,267 22.4 %
EDIBLE VEGETABLES & CERTAIN ROOTS & TUBERs.................11,152,027 16.4 %
PREP CEREAL, FLOUR, STARCH OR MILK; BAKERS WARES....10,955,117 16.1 %
All Others.....................................................................................7,546,335 11.1 %
Grand Total.................................................................................68,120,601 100 %

Please excuse the American people for sending food to starving people.

BTW: Don't worry. We have no intention of entering the poison gas market.

NOTE: The US imports from Sudan likely consisted primarily of gum arabic, "an emulsifier, flavoring agent, and thickener in both food and pharmaceuticals." Typical applications are acting as an emulsifier, flavoring agent, and thickener in both food and pharmaceuticals. It is also used in the newspaper and magazine printing process, allowing ink to better stick to the paper while keeping it from smearing, as well as protecting the printing plates from oxidation.

@Scott H
Looks like we were working concurrently. Well done.

@Querdenker: Oh, also, according to this, Sudan's foreign trade amounts to quite a bit more than "300-500 million dollars:"

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/su.html

You're off by about a factor of 10, more or less.

Jetzt aber mal schön der Reihe nach -

Die potentiellen CIA Flüge durch deutsche und rest-europäische Flughäfen wären doch deshalb so brenzlig für die transatlantischen Beziehungen, weil sie zur Verwirklichung einer gesetzeswidrigen Verhörpraxis dienen (soweit sich die Vorwürfe bestätigen).
Da wir in Europa keine Foltermethoden legalisieren, haben wir guten Grund hier gegen ausländische Kräfte vorzugehen, die unseren Kontinent für die Ermöglichung solcher Vorgehensweisen einspannen möchten.


Der Handel mit dem Sudan hingegen verstößt doch gegen keinerlei gesetzliche Normen - wieso soll das dann einen Aufschrei verursachen?

@Scott
sorry you are correct, I was referring to the "Zahlungsbilanz Außenhandel" of 300-500 Mio. USD (2004;
Schätzung Economist Intelligent Unit; source: Auswärtiges Amt)

@beimami
I suppose census.gov IS the authorative source, so I posted that. If I have numbers of the Statistisches Bundesamt, I would not spend hours at google to find out more sources.

Now a few details (and it's funny how people always look for wiggle room. So US trade is ok because it's "only food", German trade is despicable because it's not only food, but also machinery, chemicals etc (which btw are very helpful when producing food and medical drugs).

Let's check what the Auswärtige Amt says

"Das bilaterale Handelsvolumen stieg nach vorläufigen Angaben von Januar – November 2004 auf etwa 145,3 Mio. Euro. Die Exporte stiegen um 12,8% auf 114,3 Mio. Euro (2003: 101,4 Mio.). Die Importe verharrten mit 31 Mio. Euro auf Vorjahresniveau. Damit zeichnet sich für 2004 insgesamt ein leichter Anstieg des Handelsvolumens ab (vgl.: Januar – Dezember 2003 insgesamt 144,9 Mio. Euro). Dies entspricht nicht dem eigentlichen Potenzial beider Länder. Traditionelle Hauptexportgüter Sudans nach Deutschland sind Baumwolle, Gummi Arabicum sowie in geringen Mengen Sesam, Nüsse und Häute.

Die sudanesischen Importe aus Deutschland umfassten hauptsächlich Maschinen und Ausrüstungen, sowie Fertigerzeugnisse, Chemikalien, Lebensmittel und Textilien."

So what are you advocating? An embargo on machinery, so that Sudan cannot produce oil and other things, hence has no money to buy US food (it ain't free, ya know, those starving people pay for that food).

Too much hypocrisy involved imho.

@ Ray

Excellent post/article.

@Querdenker

I'm not advocating anything at all. Your earlier post was a poorly researched provocation, but with a little effort I was able to put the matter into the proper perspective. By stating only the aggregate trade figures from the Census Bureau, you left out significant relative information. We recently studied this matter in the context of anti-Americanism (http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2005/11/heres_what_we_m_1.html).

As far as German trade with Sudan goes, I don't care if the Germans make a mint selling food, machinery and chemicals to Sudan. The issue here is the willingness of the German government to figuratively "lick the boots" of tyrants and mass murderers in order to get their business. (And all the while complaining the the U.S. is immoral for freeing Iraq.)

Too much hypocrisy involved imho?

You know it brother. This site is all about hypocrisy. Namely, that of the German media and government.

@beimami
quite full of yourself, aren't you?
I "left out significant information?" And hey presto, get out that "anti-American" hammer. Wham!
So we have "good" American exports to Sudan and "bad" German dictator bootlicking exports to Sudan.
You learn something new every day.

And of course "we all know that several German companies did booming business with Saddam Hussein in the 1980s". Unlike others, of course.

There is another country in Africa which is ruled by one of the bloodiest dictator Africa has right now.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c7380.html

Thing is, he's selling oil, not gum arabic.

Hypocrisy indeed.

@Querdenker

"quite full of yourself, aren't you?"

You are not the only one, I must admit, who is of this opinion. My mother thinks so too. And don't even ask my wife. Beyond that, you are post-by-post revealing yourself to be the classic reality-challenged anti-American.

Rather than respond to the article on the actions of the German government, you dig up the first little tidbit you can find on U.S. trade to Sudan and post it as evidence of how America is evil too. When that doesn't work out, you look for some other little nugget that "proves" again how evil America is. And of course it's "all about Ooooiiiiiillllll!" What's next? Vietnam? Abu Ghraib? Gitmo? Secret CIA torture chambers?

If you feel like the article is unfair, respond to the article -- if you have the intellectual capacity to do so.

The U.S. and Germany both trade with countries that have a poor record on human rights -- China for instance. This goes back to the old engage or sanction question and is neither realistically avoidable nor morally reprehensible. The question here is the egregious and systematic nature of the actions of the Sudanese government and the disturbing deference given by the German government to the Sudanese leaders.

Is there some hypocrisy involved in above article about German trade with Sudan? Maybe. But the article is a paragon of fairness compared with the America reporting of the German press.

@beimami..
It doesn't matter if the Germans are hypocritical. It just matters to the Germans that the US is MORE hypocritical.
It is sad and I don't agree with it, but many Germans still have guilt about the HOlocaust, although most living Germans had nothing to do with it. To alleviate this guilt,
they point fingers. See the Israelis are just as bad as we were. The Palestinians are the new Jews and the Jews are the new Nazis. See we were bad, but Just look at you America! The fact they were liberated and helped back on their feet by the 'dumme unkultivierte Amis' is a great humiliation for the Land of Dichter u. Denker. Thus the need to moralize and preach.
Don't get me wrong, I have many problems with American society, Bush and the Iraq war.
Although I am for the war and voted for Bush (first time I EVER voted Republican), there is much that has gone wrong and much legitimate criticism.
But what I hear in Germany goes beyond the need of 'Friends critizing friends' (yes friends may critize friends, but that is not the impression I have of what is going on in Germany right now)
The Germans have become armchair quarterbacks. Thus I agree with the following assessment:

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemId=12632

It is time for Europe to grow up. Don't like the way the Amis do something?
How about YOU doing it? We are seeing an experiment with Iran right now.
The US is letting Europe handle it. Hope they don't fall on their face!

@beimami
If you want a fair discussion, drop the anti-American hammer snd we'll talk. Of course you don't know me but calling me an anti-American is silly. And I feel silly to protest it.

Let's have a look at the headline which slams "German" corporate greed. Let me tell you something: Corporate greed has no nationality, and it's usually what makes our economies thrive. Greed in general does that. It's not very nice to look at but it seems to work. I did study business at Georgetown university (didn't find people to be "uncultivated at all), run my own small but profitable business and I guess I got some of that corporate greed as well. I guess I would not go to Khartoum though.

But as long as trade with Sudan is legal there will be business. And to make distinction between US food and German machines is ridiculous. Machines can help to grow food, preserve food etc. Same goes for chemicals. So unless you can show me that German companies sell stuff to Sudan that can be used to foster genocide, I'm not throwing the first stone.

Sanctions against poor countries in order to punish dictators do rarely work. Iraq is a stellar example for it. Sanctions can and do kill... but not the dictators. They can make sense in specific cases (arms, dual use stuff etc) but in the end they make people suffer. How many bloody dictators have been toppled by sanctions (and not been replaced by other bloody dictators?)

But fair enough, tell me what sanctions you advocate? Oh you are not advocating at all. Fair enough as well.

Trade, like democracy, is often untidy. So I don't go for the "holier than thou" argument. You shouldn't do so either.

Of course, just attacking "corporate greed" would have sounded a bit too Münte, right? American farmers who sell food to Sudan are not the Salvation Army either. So how do you expect Sudan to pay for that food? Looking at the trade balance US-Sudan, Sudan doesn't pay for all that food with gum and nuts, but with money made from trading with other nations.

To conclude: "Everyone does it" is no excuse, its just a fact.

And since the article likes to mock the outrage about those CIA-flights, let me tell you this: Kidnapping people, whether they are alleged terrorists, criminals or innocents, is a crime. If a foreign country uses the territory of my country to commit that crime, I want my country to intervene and stop it. If the French did that, it would be exactly the same.

And on the day a German commando kidnaps a Neonazi in Florida we'll talk again. Not that it will happen, of course.

@ Querdenker
"Corporate greed has no nationality"

Some German magazines, however, portray hedgefunds not just as bloodsuckers, but as American bloodsuckers.

The Divestment campaign in the US mentions that Siemens is from Germany, but does not describe Siemens wrongdoings as German wrongdoings.

"How many bloody dictators have been toppled by sanctions (and not been replaced by other bloody dictators?)"

South Africa comes close enough.

The U.S. Senate called for more than just sanctions.

Germany has called for multilateral sanctions as well, but nevertheless does business...

Davids Medienkritik based their post on an entry in our blog, The Atlantic Review .
I have based my post on many other smart blogs and campaigns and I googled for ages until I found the German Pavillion website about the companies at the fair in Kartoum.

Please read it for more information.

I have linked to Neokomplott, which wrote an open letter to the Afrika-Verein. This letter explains very well why trading with Sudan is special and will not stimulate positive change, unlike trading with other countries might do.

@Querdenker

>"If you want a fair discussion, drop the anti-American hammer snd we'll talk. Of course you don't know me but calling me an anti-American is silly."

You have a point here. Just because you argue like every anti-American I have ever known doesn't mean that you are one.

>"Let's have a look at the headline which slams "German" corporate greed."

Actually, I understand that headline to be mocking the German press, which is constantly complaining about the evils of U.S. Capitalism. You have apparently misunderstood the content and purpose of the post.

>"And to make distinction between US food and German machines is ridiculous."

I don't recall making this distiction. Maybe you can help me there with a quote.

>"So I don't go for the "holier than thou" argument."

Then why did your earlier posts ignore the content of the article, concentrating instead on attacking America?

>"You shouldn't do so either."

I didn't. I simply pointed out the fallacies in your "holier than thou" arguements.

>"And since the article likes to mock the outrage about those CIA-flights, let me tell you this: Kidnapping people, whether they are alleged terrorists, criminals or innocents, is a crime. If a foreign country uses the territory of my country to commit that crime, I want my country to intervene and stop it. If the French did that, it would be exactly the same."

See the part about "holier than thou" arguments.

To reiterate: I don't particularly care how the Germans make their money. Nor do I care how much they make. The original post above points out the hypocrisy of the German media and your comments pretty much follow their America-bashing modus operandi.

@Querdenker
>>Kidnapping people, whether they are alleged terrorists, criminals or innocents, is a crime. If a foreign country uses the territory of my country to commit that crime, I want my country to intervene and stop it.

Ok, let's try this. If Germany is unwittingly harboring someone with a suitcase nuke ready to board a plane for Los Angeles and following the rules to extradite him would take months, should the U.S.

a) file the paperwork anyway to avoid that nasty sobriquet of 'unilateralist'

b) let him board the plane, but shoot it down over the Atlantic

c) grab his ass

I vote for c). If it makes you feel better, have the U.N. write a strongly worded letter and mail it to The Circular File, Washington, D.C.

@Pamela

Now that's an easy one. How about...

d) Inform German authorities who would grab his ass in a heartbeat, dontcha think? Or do you really think Germany would let this man board a plane? I don't see a problem with waiting for extradition. The guy won't be running around with his suitcase but be behind German bars.

As for c) Germany is a sovereign state. And sovereign states do not allow other states, even friends, commit crimes on its terrority with impunity. And if German authorities were "in the know" about those activities (which at some point must have happened), I want them to be charged as well.

@beimami

you did not mention machinery, you mentioned "poison gas". I preferred to ignore this outlandish remark. Germany does not export poison gas. Should German companies export poison gas, which is absolutely illegal and a serious felony, they are criminals and will be prosecuted if caught. I'm not ignoring the fact that rogue German businesses (and those of other countries) have done just that, but you should know the difference between crime and legal trade.

@Querdenker
>>Germany is a sovereign state

Germany WAS a sovereign state. It is now part and parcel of the suprastate, the EU.

Read about this case trying to extradite two Yeminis from Germany. It took 10 months and almost didn't happen.

Excerpt:
---------
[17] With reference to case-law the Constitutional Court decided that article 100 paragraph 2 of the Basic Law attributes to the Court the function of defending international law in the internal legal order.[43] With respect to the general principles of international law, in the sense of article 25 of the Basic Law, in cases of doubt, the Constitutional Court has exclusive authority to determine if there is a norm of international law to be applied in a given case.
--------

Yep. INTERNATIONAL LAW - that would be the EU

Here's the link to the German Law Journal
http://www.germanlawjournal.com/article.php?id=408

So, you'll forgive my lack of confidence in German jurisprudence or law enforcement.

So it took 10 months, jeez. What's the problem? The guys in Guantanamo have been waiting for 4 years already. Legal procedures are slow, we all know that. The important thing is that your guy with the suitcase can do no harm anymore.

In Germany you are subject to German Law. Whether you have "confidence in German jurisprudence or law enforcement" is rather irrelevant.

If U.S. government institutions think they can act with impunity in Germany they are (or at least should be) mistaken. And actions like these tend to backfire because they jeopardize the trusting collaboration between the (secret) services of allied nations. And nothing is more important in the fight against terrorists than this collaboration.

@Querdenker

Now you are really trying to pull one over. I said -- and these were my exact words -- "Don't worry. We have no intention of entering the poison gas market."

That was (clearly) a polemical provocation intended to mock the nature of your comment. I neither said nor implied that German firms were exporting poison gas as you specifically claim I did in your comments.

BTW: It's a good thing you are not living in Nordrhein-Westfalen. They had a little snow there and after four days, the German authorities still haven't been able to restore power to about 100,000 people. Of course, I know the fair and balanced German media wouldn't make a fuss if the U.S. government required more than four days to respond to a little snow.

No I don't live in NRW. I did read though that they didn't have that much of "little snow" in a century.
As for the U.S., it depends on the region. In Chicago they certainly cope well with snow. I lived in D.C. and it was kind of a ritual to watch how public life breaks down, schools close, when they had an inch or two of snow.

As for the "poison gas", I said that you "mentioned it". Yeah mockery, right. At least you have an exit strategy for everything you say.

Read through the comments again Querdenker. You clearly implied that I said German firms are selling poison gas to Sudan. I said no such thing.

And beimami doesn't need an exit strategy. He simply thinks before he pushes that "Post" button.

No, you didn't say it, you did IMPLY it.

"He simply thinks before he pushes that "Post" button."
Is that so? You might consider applying for the job as National Security Advisor

But I won't continue trying to nail a puddig to the wall.

@Querdenker
>> I lived in D.C. and it was kind of a ritual to watch how public life breaks down, schools close, when they had an inch or two of snow.

NOOOOO! You left out the best part! Following the snow plows around to see which D.C. Council members got their streets plowed first.

Not to mention the mayor's street.

I vouch for Querdenker on this one. Washington D.C - Winter Wonderland on the Potomac.

LOL Pamela, you got that one right... D.C. is a wonderland in many ways indeed.
Epic fights with the DMV included.

@Querdenker

") Inform German authorities who would grab his ass in a heartbeat, dontcha think? Or do you really think Germany would let this man board a plane? "

I call bullshit. It's highly likely they'd let him go, just like they let go all of those Islamofacists who were selling the neo-Nazi propoganda at that book fair a few weeks ago. And just like they let go that guy who helped plan the 9/11 attacks (what was his name? don't have time to Google right now). Germany has repeatedly protested every time the U.S. has interned a flight from any international origination, regardless of the facts of the case. They don't give a damn about U.S. security; in fact, they'd be all in favor of anything that might hurt the U.S. economy. That way, their own economic mess wouldn't look so bad by comparison.

That's right. I'm saying that if they knew that a terrorist in Germany had a nuke, the weasel German government would let him go -- as long as he promised to use it somewhere else. The German government would be perfectly happy to see the U.S. nuked, as long as they could maintain plausible deniability.

And if the anti-American hammer fits in your thick skull, which it clearly does, then wear it.

@ Querdenker:

You could say that DC is, in the words of a professor at Georgetown I know, a "failed state."

@Querdenker -
Germany does not export poison gas. Should German companies export poison gas, which is absolutely illegal and a serious felony, they are criminals and will be prosecuted if caught.

What beimami keeps inexplicably failing to point out is that Germany's exports include dual-use machinery used in the manufacture of various nasties. Germany did not sell poison gasses to Saddam either, it sold him the equipment to make his own. But his essential point is correct, we aren't going to compete on that turf. Your products already have a superior reputation in that market.

The guys in Guantanamo have been waiting for 4 years already.

And they can die of old age whle they wait. They aren't criminals, they aren't in a criminal process, they haven't - as far as I know - even been charged with a crime. They engaged US troops on the battlefield. This isn't a criminal offense. It is, however, reason enough to execute them on the spot. We chose to detain them instead. Sue us.

@Pamela -
Following the snow plows around to see which D.C. Council members got their streets plowed first.

I only just now realized how socialist Amherst apparently was. When I lived there, my street was always one of the first to be plowed - there were four families who work in the streets dept on it. The council members could wait just like everyone else, first service went to the proletariat.

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