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During my year as a 12th grader in Germany, I was struck by how unambitious my classmates were. In a small graduating class of 30 students or so, only two or three planned on attending university afterwards. Most were happy to stay in their home time helping out in the family business or doing some menial job. Granted, this was in den neuen Bundeslander 3 years after reunification, which meant that eastern schools were playing catch up to West German standards, and unemployment was rampant. Come to think of it, unemployment is still rampant in Sachsen and though the towns were rather cute, they were also a bit sleepy with little economic activity.

One thing that was difficult for me to accept was how young people refused to declare any real long term goal, being more than ready to downplay their prospects. Just telling them that there was a whole world out there and that you can do anything you set your mind to is quite alien. There doesn't seem to be a stigma there for not having tried your best, since it's OK that you did good enough to ensure you any kind of livelihood.

And that's Germany. My French relatives whine quite a lot about their lives even though many of them fare quite well. Taxation, immigrants, and anti-americanism seems to be all they talk about with their American relatives.

For more of my views on this and other matters, check out my new blog at www.architectureandmorality.blogspot.com

For the general disappeared general thread. A must-read:

"Even when they have been instigated in Western countries by agents of the Islamic regime, they have led to no meaningful reaction. One needs only think about the killing of the opposition figures especially in Germany (1992) (2) which led to a ruling by a German court that implicated a number of public officials in the Islamic regime. Yet today Germany is one of the main economic partners of Iran; only recently the leaders of the Green Party asked the Iranian ambassador to convey their message to Iranian officials concerning Akbar Ganji. This is the full and entire extent of their efforts!

I should add that, in my opinion, this "tolerance" has led to a belief among many Moslems that it is their right to attack and kill whatever and whoever they think acts against their sacred beliefs. Indeed, this is one of the reasons why I am publishing this piece under a pen name because nobody knows what may happen if I argue that the main text of Islam, the Qoran, and its history and the teachings of its prophet need to be examined to see whether or not violence, injustice, inequality and intolerance are integral parts of this religion.

Some damned fool might issue a fatwa to kill me: another damned fool might be tempted to carry it out in order to end up in a garden filled with virgins, Paradise according to the Qoran. This might sound farfetched, but it is impossible not to think about the Dutch filmmaker, Theo van Gogh, who was foully murdered for daring to make a movie criticizing the way Islam treats women. (By the way, let us not forget that the strongest reactions to van Gogh's murder came from conservative discourses and not liberal or leftist ones.)

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2005/August/Ganji/index.html

here is the whole article

"The last scientific poll in Tehran showed that the majority of people want Iran to have a better relationship with the US. Soon after the results of the poll were published, the pollsters were arrested; they are still serving time in prison. One of them, Dr. Qazian, has recently written a long letter describing how he has been tortured during investigations."

I would like to emphasize this note from the article above. Is there anything going on to support these people in prison? Or are the people still too busy with the "real" torture in Guantanamo and Abu Graib?

Somehow, I'm not really surprised that pessimism is so high in Germany. From what I've been reading here and elsewhere, there's a very negative view there, one that could depress the economy there just with bad vibes.

There's a lot about the US reported even in our own media that isn't true... such as the recession of the early 90's. The economy was talked down by the news media to get the first President Bush out of office. But it was never as bad as the news media claimed it was. While all the major networks were screaming about "recession", people here in Florida were buying record numbers of new cars... one of the last things someone will buy if they're worried about the financial situation.

I was working in the headquarters computer room of the Florida Dept of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, who issues car titles (as well as driver licenses and vehicle registrations), and we were printing 24,000 new car titles per day, which indicated record new car sales. Sales for used cars involved a special title... a "transfer title" it was called... and used car sales were down. If you're worried about your financial future and HAVE to get another car, would you buy a new one or a used one? But used car sales were down, and new car sales were up. So where was the "recession"??? I didn't exist in Florida at all. Maybe elsewhere, but not here.

Maybe a lot of economic progress is a matter of attitude... determining whether the cup is half empty or half full. For that matter, the US has generally been an optimistic nation throughout its history.

We're just happy that we're not Germans.

"As long as the majority of Germans continue to delude themselves that the Socialist welfare state is the model for the future and diplomacy is the solution to all problems without exception, they will also continue to resent America and Americans for continuing to outperform them as they sink deeper into the mire of international irrelevance."

I cant hear this anymore - and you know why? The last time Germany thought that diplomacy is not a solution to all problems and seeked international relevance, your kind was not content either.

As for the overall satisfaction in germany: Its really bad, but we know that for quite some time already - thats why i think its time for a regime change.
If we could just throw federalism to the garbage heap (for a more effective government) and reunite with austria (to gain more "international relevance") - Then we sure would start feeling better again.

Zyme,

what exactly does a reunification with Austria have to do with Germans' happiness ? And as to the federalism: the USAhappen to be a much more federalist state than Germany with significantly more power to the states than the German laender could ever dream of. and that system outperforms our pathetic but so widely-cherished pseudo-socialist welfare system by far.

no, zyme, i think ray's conclusions are very accurate. it's the Germans who delude themselves. when i first went to the US to live there, brainwashed by the German media, i expected to move into a fanatic police state, poverty stricken, obsessed with guns and inflicted by crime. that all turned out to be rubbish. sadly enough, i suspect many Germans still believe some version of this picture to be true and have no idea about the country at all. which is arguably something they have in common with many French or Spaniards, too.

The last time Germany thought that diplomacy is not a solution to all problems and seeked international relevance, your kind was not content either.

That really depends on what you consider a 'problem', doesn't it? A belligerent regime developing weapons to menace its neighbors is an entirely different sort of problem than "we don't own the rest of Europe".

@ Zyme:

You wrote:

"I cant hear this anymore - and you know why? The last time Germany thought that diplomacy is not a solution to all problems and seeked international relevance, your kind was not content either."

My kind? What kind would that be Zyme? And don't you think there is just a tad bit of middle ground between militant Fascism and total Pacifism? I mean your statement is beyond absurd. Can German politics only operate on one extreme (let's take over the world) or the other (let's be blind pacifists)? Can there be no in-between? I think Germans are capable of achieving a reasonable balance between idealism and realism. Do you? You certainly don't seem to have much faith in Germany or Germans if you think they either have to be blood-thirsty Nazis or lame-brained, tree-hugging hippies.

uhhh... although Zyme comes up with some outrageous things occasionally, I took his remarks about Austria as a little tongue-in-cheek.
That notwithstanding, Ray's comments underscore my own observations. We could speculate forever on the reasons, and opinion polls can be twisted easily by the question-askers to get any result you please. Nevertheless, my own experience of 24 years is that the Germans, as a people, are pessimistic status-quo protectors whilst Americans, generally, are optimists and can't be bothered to defend the status quo because they are looking to improve their lots in life and would rather expend their energies that way. There are of course notable exceptions which kind of prove the rule.
Helmut Schmidt writes in his book Die Mächte der Zukunft (I don't know if it has been translated into English yet) that he believes that American optimism is genetically predisposed; when people from all over the world leave their respective home countries and emmigrate to the US to start anew, they must have a certain optimism which over the last centuries has then been passed on to the later generations! I don't know if scientists will ever isolate the Optimism gene, but it is at least an interesting observation and theory, especially coming from someone in the SPD.

I think Zyme was being sarcastic but I do see that many people do take this view - not only in Germany but Japan as well

It seems that the post-war guilt has become a convienient excuse not to help out in the world today for too many

i would second that ... it is perhaps a learned behavior or attitude..

@Zyme
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31937

I know George Bush's father placed alot of faith in Germany..
what was the slogan .. Partners in leadership? he also was a strong proponent of German unity. Don't give me this whining about 'everybody is so down on us because we're Germans'. It isn't like that in the USA.. yet... although if rot rot grün wins.. the long slow slide begins..

Feel you can't please anybody cause you're German, Zyme? No matter what the Germans do, it ain't right? Well, I feel the same way as an American.. wenn die Amis A machen, ist es nicht richtig,
wenn die Amis B machen, ist es nicht richtig.. wenn die Amis Ah AH machen.. mann oh mann ist es nicht richtig..

Americans may be optimistic by nature, but they are very dissatisfied with the job performance of President Bush:
From today's (right-wing) Manchester Union Leader:

"The latest AP-Ipsos poll puts approval for Bush's handling of the war at only 38 percent and his overall job approval at only 42 percent. (In addition, 50 percent of the country says he is a dishonest and only 48 percent says he is honest.)"

@amiexpat [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31937]


Thats a really interesting article, i enjoyed reading it. I would like to respond to some of the points described in it.

About the described german lack of ability to recognize "evil", i have to say the following:
Men like Saddam were not popular in germany either. And Bush being compared to Hitler.. well i m not a leftist, so i dont compare anyone to him and cant really explain how this developed. Those leftists often tend to exagerate, they are hard to predict. So I personally dont pay any attention to them.

There is one important thing i can explain to you though: In this article, the writer (is it You?) wonders why we dont helped those iraqis or the jews when they were threatened by an evil like that happened in our country. This is because most germans usually dont care about what happens to foreign people (the great flood in the pacific is a big exception). So when we are doing good buisness with a country that oppresses its own people, we have no interest in a regime change and therefor dont support any military engagements.

There surely are some pacifists, but there are far less than americans tend to believe. When there are a few 100.000 demonstrating against the iraq war, then there are still some 80.000.000 left that dont care about it at all. That doesnt mean they would support the war - they simply dont want to waste their time demonstrating against a war that is so far away. So the pacifists are really a minority. They are mostly in the generation of my parents - thats why they dominate our media right now. And because the media transports its ideals the loudest way, thats what foreigners notice first of germany.

Actually, many collegues at my university believe ("hinter vorgehaltener Hand") what famous prussians always said: A country without a real war in 40 years tends to sink within its own materialism - so we really need one again. Again this would not mean that we supported the US invasions - we would rather like germany to advance its own interests this way, too. But i m not sure whether many germans in general think this way.

As for the jews in Israel: Many germans think we paid enough for them, and are fed up with their moral "superiority" on german aspects. If you really want to anger germans, then you should keep teaching us about our history - This is exactly what jews tend to do. Thats why i think its not easy to motivate germans for helping the jews. Its like "they should finally stand on their own feet rather than relying on german assistance".


As regards the missing gratefulness of germans towards americans the auther complains about:
Firstly most germans that lived to see americans "liberate" (i dont like that term and would rather say "defeat", but its the term americans are most familiar with) them are very old today and dont play an active role in our society anymore. Secondly after our "reunification" (while i would only say we are truely reunited when austria is with us again) we lost the mood to listen to other countries telling us what to do. We rather want to go "den deutschen Weg" (Schröder) again and do whats best for our own country. And when interests of countries are not the same, this can lead to different politics and conflicts - with the united states just like with any other country.

@Niko: My mentioning of Schmidt's beliefs does not equal agreement -- I also think environment, society, political traditions... essentially the legacy of the founding fathers provides that backdrop for people to flourish (pursue happiness!) and be optimistic. I merely wanted to point out that one of those lefty intellectuals recognises a difference between American optimism and whatever is prevelant in Germany... even if his stated reasons are "racist" in your eyes. I didn't make the "racist" connection, because after all, Americans came from everywhere and represent all races for that matter.
@Vic: Quoting an AP poll probably won't get you very far here. There are lies, damn lies, and opinion polls... and especially AP will twist it to the left. If you are not familiar with how _any_ position can be supported with an opinion poll if you simply ask the right questions the right way... well, then you need to read up. Now go back to DU to your friends.
@amiexpat: As I have mentioned on this forum before, during Bush 41 the Germans were perhaps even threatening to replace the UK at the top of our European Allies list. What were we thinking?
@Zyme: Your views about Germany's relationship with Israel may be controversial. But even if I would accept your views (which I don't), then I would stll think it appropriate if Germany would at least not undermine Israel's security and existance through absolutely wacky support of Palestinian organizations that in turn fund terrorism and PR for the Victim Role instead of actually laying the foundations to build a successful government and state.

@Zyme
You wrote:. And when interests of countries are not the same, this can lead to different politics and conflicts -with the united states just like with any other country.

Sorry Zyme, first you would have to start getting a group of Soldiers together. enlist at least 10 times the numbers you do now, equip them properly, train them and teach them not to adopt the French surrender option.
Of course, that's not possible because Germany doesn't have the money or the will to strenghten it's military.
As it stands the German military would have a hard time fighting out of a paper bag.
Conflicts? The EU, not only Germany will try to stand on the sidelines cheering on China against the USA. Of course that is also impossible since sidelines won't exist anymore in the next big "Conflict".

@Niko

I m not going to take part in the " you are a nazi! - no i m not! - yes you are! " game.
Of course i have a rather imperialistic and national attitude, but there would have to be some more to justify putting me into simple categories.
Hopefully you will come back to reason and stop this bad style of discussing.

Ok Zyme - why don't you describe Adolf Hitler for us - just a few sentences will do

That should clear it up

@americanbychoice

"Sorry Zyme, first you would have to start getting a group of Soldiers together. enlist at least 10 times the numbers you do now, equip them properly, train them and teach them not to adopt the French surrender option."

That to hear from an american..
Recently, Frank Faun - the head of Krauss Maffei Wegmann, one of the biggest german armed vehicles companies - complained about the american attitude towards importing military equipment from europe in the Süddeutsche Zeitung.
He says that americans are reported to nail bulletproof kevlar wests on their jeeps (as a means of mine protection!) rather than using german jeeps which are protected against mines and bazookas. Thereby, americans not only harm european arming companies, but also the safety of their own soldiers simply to support american arming companies, which lack equal equipment to protect their own soldiers.

You know.. flying the most modern stealth bombers and using uptodate ballistic missiles isnt going to help your soldiers in patroling the streets of baghdad.

Simply because we had no major war in the last 60 years, guessing our army would not be able to achieve anything seems half-cocked to me.

@Pogue Mahone

What exactly do you want from me? I think there s quite some pages online, which provide a biography of him.

@Niko

Well until you tell me what your fuss is about, its hard to consider your behaviour "reasonable"

Why don't you tell us what YOU think of him?

A good guy, bad guy - little bit of both?

When i m referring to the "teaching" of history, i mean the following:
Its when jewish organisations go crazy whenever important german politicians want us to regain our influence or say that we should stop supporting them all the time (remember Möllemann? or Hohmann?)
Jews represent such a tiny minority in germany, and the audience they still get is far too much according to that.

"Did it ever cross your mind that German aid for the state of Israel was meant to relief Holocaust survivors?"

Hello - its the year 2005. With the treaty of versailles after WW1, we would have had to pay until 1989. But there was no such treaty with jewish organisations or the state of israel after WW2. How long are we supposed to built submarines for israel on our own bill, or donate anti-aircraft rocket batteries or leasing money they will never repay? How long shall we help them building a fortress in palestine against all the muslims around them? How long can people from all over the former soviet union receive german citizenship for free if they have jewish ancistors? Well nobody knows, if we dont act its probably going on forever.

The Holocaust survivors are mostly dead, helping the state of Isreal wont do them any good anymore.

And where did I say that I supported Bush's transformation of the middle east?

As regards Walser and the intellectuals that come to his help - by listening to the offensive language you use, its no surprise that you seem to dislike intellectuals..

@Pogue Mahone

Well Hitler led germany in a world war and we lost it partly due to his unresponsible military decisions. Horrible casualties were suffered and since we lost the war, we needed decades to recover. We are still far behind the position, we had before WW2. So his balance sheet isnt looking very favorable, dont you agree?

His system (like the japanese monarchy) proved one thing though - when there is strong confidence in a system and its government by the german people, then it takes the rest of the world to defeat it.

"Well Hitler led germany in a world war and we lost it partly due to his unresponsible military decisions. Horrible casualties were suffered and since we lost the war, we needed decades to recover. We are still far behind the position, we had before WW2. So his balance sheet isnt looking very favorable, dont you agree?

His system (like the japanese monarchy) proved one thing though - when there is strong confidence in a system and its government by the german people, then it takes the rest of the world to defeat it."

Hardly a stinging rebuke of der fuhrer
there zyme

"I see, it's a huge Jewish conspiracy out there. Nevermind that in actual fact it should read, "people from all over the former soviet union receive german citizenship for free if they have German ancistors." "

Why dont you inform yourself before telling nonsense? Its not only russians with german ancestors. Take a look at this:
http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/2005/06/zuwanderung-jkv.htm
If you understand german language, you will learn quickly.

"Alright, why care for the child of a murdered mother, she's dead anyway!"

There is one striking difference you forgot: Those are no children anymore. They can live on their own - at least one should expect them to be able to do that.
My generation did nothing to those jews, I will not accept that we continue wasting our money for their advantage.

"But let me answer your question. What about another 100 years? That seems to be the least that Germany could do for the descendants of Holocaust survivors."

Obviously you are a true fanatic who would like us to pay forever - trying to convince you of something seems to be almost futile.

"Zyme hits bottom, keeps digging."

Why dont you try to improve your offensive style? I always tried to keep up a polite way of talking to you. I learn that this is difficult for your kind, but i m sure you can do better.

So if the grandchildren of Holocaust victims are not entitled to anything from todays Germans - and I don't really disagree there you know - why are the "Palistinians" who have been born in the last 50 years entitled to anything from Israel?

Did you know there were 500K "Palistinians" in 1947 - and there are 4M+ today

What does Israel owe these 3.5M Pali's - if the Germans don't owe those Holocaust decendents?

@Pogue Mahone

No i did not know about how many palistinians there are in israel and how quickly their population is growing.
They are citizens of israel - like any other state, israel is supposed to care for its own citizens. Nothing more and nothing less. But i dont understand why you are talking about this now *?*

"But I'd still like to know the figure. How much does "Germany" pay to "the Jews" each year?"

Take a look at this, in the chapter "Wiedergutmachung" you will find the numbers.
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/www/de/laenderinfos/laender/laender_ausgabe_html?land_id=66

55 Billion Euros until 2000. Are you now going to question the credibility of numbers published by the ministry of foreign affairs?

@Niko

http://www.bpb.de/publikationen/MU3IE9,2,0,Gesellschaftsstrukturen_und_Entwicklungstrends.html

"Die gemeinsame Klammer bilden für die Mehrheit der arabischen Staatsbürgerinnen und -bürger Israels die nationale Zugehörigkeit zum palästinensischen Volk sowie das Bewusstsein, als Minderheit in einem jüdisch dominierten Staat zu leben."

It doesnt look like you are right.
Again - why do you continue to tell nonsense?

"The point is, though, that no matter how often your figures are proven incorrect, you'll stand by your anti-Semitic points, because there's a larger truth about the Jews, right?"

Where did i say this? Which figures have proven to be incorrect? I dont want the german state to pay anything for what happened in WW2 anymore, but that doesnt mean that i believe into world conspiracy theories.

You sound tired, maybe you should go to bed for today.

"Just so you know it, the Catholic and Protestant churches receive more than 3.5 billion Euros (with a b) in subsidies per year alone, coal mining subsidies are more than 8 billion Euros. Do the math."

Well, maybe thats because they are more important?

When did I talk about fugitives? We were talking about the palestinians. Why do you hurry from one point to another, always seeming to be too lazy to collect any usable facts?

"Boy, how old are you? I have this sneaking suspicion that you're one of them 15-year olds who keeps enjoying "Freizeitveranstaltungen" by local NPD branches, and just repeating what 'em grown-ups told you about 'em Jews."

I will not join you in talking to each other at this level - find another one who likes to fight with you in the sandbox.

@Niko -
The assumption that something like optimism could be encoded in the genes borders on the racist, frankly, and I'm not sure whether Schmidt meant to imply that.

It would have to concern race in one manner or another to be so, and it does not. That aside, I don't buy the 'genetic optimism' theory with regard to America, but if depression can be genetic, why not optimism?

@Zyme..
you said.
My generation did nothing to those jews, I will not accept that we continue wasting our money for their advantage.

true, but your generation continues to support
the Palestinian Authority.. true, they (the PA) aren't as efficient as the generation of your parents/grandparents... YET... at killing the Jews..
but practice makes perfect...

yes, Mr Fischer, condemn the 'spiral of violence'... then sign that aid check for Arafat..

do a little research on the Grand Mufti, Hitler and CHAIRMAN Arafat..

In re Zyme

I have no doubt from what he has said many times on this site that Zyme is a German nationalist. I have no problem with that: Mazinni (spelling?) pointed out that nationalists can (not necessarily do) understand and sympathize with each other's point of view.

I also have no doubt that he is an anti-Semite. That proves he is morally obtuse at best.

But I do not think it is correct to equate German nationalism + anti-Semitism with Nazism. There is an important moral distinction between someone who has a prejudice and someone who condones murder. It is like the distinction between Atlee and Stalin, both socialists but only one a murderous tyrant. I shall call no one a Nazi without proof positive, no matter what my suspicions.

As someone said, Zyme digs his hole deeper with each post, but he is civil. I have confidence that the people at this site can see Zyme for what he is (or at least what is drifting toward) without banning him. Part of what WE stand for is freedom of speech, even when it is nonsense.

JeffM

Reading this exchange, it becomes obvious that Zyme knows frightening little facts about Israel(Jewish)-German relationships. He compensates this deficit though with lots of right-wing propaganda.

Zyme claims he is a German nationalist. No, that's not how a nationalist looks like. A real nationalist who loves his country does not ignore the past and the consequences from the past. Zyme is doubtless a budding Neonazi. He is dumb, he knows no facts and his only arguments are the slogans heard at NPD-"Freizeitveranstaltungen" (just like Niko said).I hope he will get back to his miserable wormy existence and stay away from this site.

@Vic: Scout is right about opinion polls. When questions are further broken down, it turns out that the majority of Americans who are not happy about Bush's war performance are unhappy because we aren't being agressive enough. People are getting fed up with the PC crap. But, in reality, I can't see a better way to handle the situation. We have to let the Iraqis take over at one point or another, and that's what we've been doing for more than a year. Decisions on what to do are in the hands of the Iraqi interim government, and have been for some time now.

"I did not call him a Nazi, but a Neonazi. That term is commonly used in Germany to describe, well, someone like Zyme. Neonazi doesn't necessarily imply that these people would kill Jews if they had the chance."

Well, all of you got it somewhat half-right, I think. ;)

I don't think Zyme is a "true" Neonazi. At least not in the way that he would himself recognize this or even take pride in that. It's a bit different, and rather interesting. I would rather call him a "classic" fascist.

Understand that basicly you are talking to someone here who is roundabout 100 years old - in his mind. I once already had a rather interesting discussion here with Zyme some time ago (you might want to google "Posted by Zyme" or something to verify my following remarks). I think you weren't quite around on this board during these specific days, Niko - so my comment here is just to clear some things up (wonder why you, Zyme, don't come out with it as openly as you did back then?).

In this discussion, people were talking about the wrong economical, political etc. structures in today's Germany, similar to this one here. This was when Zyme turned up and basicly agreed. But his "vision" was quite different than this of most: He believes (correct me if I'm wrong) that one of the major reasons of Germany's problems lay not mostly in economic terms etc., but rather that our CONSTITUTION (OK, "Grundgesetz") is ill-suited for Germany. He speculated that it would be wise for Germany to return to a political system where there is a *strong* leader / leadership that does not get bothered by something decadent like a political opposition. He described it more specifically when he mentioned some kind of "Kaiser" - who however - is elected for say 4-5 years, but during this time has a "strong hand" to promote whatever he deems best for Germany.

I agreed with Zyme in so far that it would be wise to hold all those federal elections (by which he argued federalism and opposition is a bad thing) mostly alltogether during one election term rather than dispersed over time, so that we don't have this constant "election debate" going on in Germany, where everyone and his dog lies to the people in order to win some federal election and thereby neccessary political reforms are put in place late or never. So, I promoted an idea how one might IMPROVE our DEMOCRACY (which he then decided not to comment on), but Zyme tends to think that democracy itself is a bad thing and we need a more pronounced LEADER.

He also articulated himself rather negatively about our Verfassungsschutz ("Protection of the constitution board/agency"?) and compared it to the STASI. This of course is ridiculous, but I can see why he has such hard feelings about it when he comes from a corner which believes our democratic system is the problem of Germany.

What you see here in Zyme is - I believe - unfortunately THAT sad desease in mind which has brought devastation, utter destruction and disharray to Germany for two times during the last century: Got a problem? Get rid of this damn democracy and all those unnerving debates! Get a Führer who sets the country back on track! (Heil!)

Niko is not wrong when he identified Zyme as someone with a "Nazi" mindset. I would call him rather a fascist though as I would call those people fascists/nationalists who decided to take over half the world in 1914 and decided to put their faith in the Führer (rather than in themselves) in 1933. It was exactly the same extremist and often cynical mindset ("there is no good and evil, only the right of the strongest, and above all, a strong or weak DEUTSCHLAND") which you can observe here with Zyme. This mindset has some logical points to make, and is not based on stubborn extremism alone, but it is a mindset ignorant of history and basic democratic values by putting its faith into an ill-suited idea: The Führer / Kaiser / King / "strong hand and shut up", instead of THE CITIZEN. It ignores the fact that those guys are human themselves and thereby have no right whatsoever to make law and policy on behalf of fellow citizens who can't properly stop them once they go berserk. And, in addition: If you want to understand how from a Nationalist mindset you end up with irrational semtiments against ethnic groups like Jews, just look at Zyme's reasoning. Niko is very correct in his observations.

And Zyme: In one of your comments above you reasoned: "There is one important thing i can explain to you though: In this article, the writer (is it You?) wonders why we dont helped those iraqis or the jews when they were threatened by an evil like that happened in our country. This is because most germans usually dont care about what happens to foreign people (the great flood in the pacific is a big exception)."

I understand that you were talking about the Iraqis as well as the Jews. But in your 3rd sentence: "threatened by an evil like that happened in our country." and "germans usually don't care about what happens to foreign people." - Plenty of the millions of Jews that our country murdered, my friend, were NOT even FOREIGNERS. They were GERMANS, Mr. German. Or do you also share the idea of aryan blood-lines?

I consider it a very sad thing that there seems to be some virus in the German political mind that tends to think extremistically / become nationalistic / wants to abolish freedom / go berserk as soon as problems show up (that this kind of mindset seems still to exist I can see when I look not only at Zyme but also those 12% who will probably vote the new communist party in the upcoming elections).

Zyme, I share your thoughts in so far that I also want to see a strong and prospering Germany. But, dear citizen, we are not going to achieve this by reviving the Kaiser / König / Fürst / Komissar / Führer. Have a history book and take a look into it: These things brought DEVASTATION to your and my beloved Germany. Neither is the Verfassungsschutz the one which hinders Germans to prosper.

Instead, the problem of Germany is exactly opposite: Too little faith in oneself, too little faith in the CITIZEN and too ignorant even of their own history. You give an impressive example of this. How many tries does your ilk need until they learn that prosperity and justice can only originate out of MORE freedom and each one of us instead of the "Führer"???

David?

I'm going to Nyah-nyah you, check out the only post under "Correction" on 8/2.

You guys really should skim everything.

You would have had this 10 days ago.

The froggie youth aren't exactly dancing in the streets, either, via Bros. Judd:

FRANCE is facing an unprecedented new-generation exodus as many of its disillusioned younger people leave in search of a better life abroad.

French organisations offering help to those seeking to emigrate have reported an increase in requests for assistance from young people.

Fed up with a country they describe as rigid, racist and old-fashioned, French youngsters are opting for a new start in Britain, Canada, America or New Zealand where they can find housing and jobs more easily than in France.

Unemployment among the under-25s in France stands at 23.3 per cent, and 40 per cent of 18-30 year-olds describe their financial state as "difficult".

Many cite French employment practices as being at the root of the problem.....


---

We have a saying, "Go West, young man."

--My generation did nothing to those jews, I will not accept that we continue wasting our money for their advantage.--

We've been carrying your ass 60 years, Zyme.

What about my, my parents and my grandparents money cos you had delusions of grandeur?

Start carrying your military and prescription drug weight, then we'll talk. It's not that America pays too high prescription drug prices, it's our "allies" and "historic friends" who haven't been and aren't paying enough.

At least you did pay back your portion of the Marshall Plan unlike your next door neighbor.



There s something i want to point out to those who consider me as being a "neo-nazi"

Wouldnt this include that i would vote for NDP or their relatives in general elections? But look, I am not going to vote a bunch of mostly poor educated people who only want to profit by a general discontent among german population instead of providing promising solutions.

As regards the Jews: I m fine with them as long as they finally leave germany and its citiziens alone. And since they are not going to do that, i want the government to stop all payment and the media to only grant them the audience such a little minority (in comparison to the rest of germany)deserves.

I wouldnt even hesitate to work for a german firm in Israel - surrounded by all kinds of Jews. And I would fear extremists bombing rather than the population there. Now would a true anti-semite be willing to do this?

I simply want our country to get back on track, without that hindering bonds of what happened so many decades ago - since only leaving these bonds behind plus reforming our political system will enable us to progress freely and powerfully again!

@ Niko

I stand corrected. I did not know that Neo-Nazi meant "quite close to Nazi" instead of "modern day Nazi."

@ Alex N.

I think I would argue with you whether Imperial Germany was fascist. It certainly was nationalist, militarist, colonialist, and expansionist, but it basically operated according to a rule of law subject to parliamentary control. I do not like to lose the distinction between constitutionalism and totalitarianism that comes from being quick to toss around the term "fascist."

On the other hand, I do think that fascism, and Nazism in particular, have their roots during WWI. Der Fuhrer was not the Kaiser, but HL; there is your military strongman. Hitler operated under the delusion that he was Frederick the Great, Bismark, and HL all wrapped up in one.

@ Zyme

I am afraid to ask what the "Jews" are doing to Germany, which has been pretty much Judenrein for the last 60 years. Israel, a quite small country with quite a few local issues on its hands, is certainly no threat to or material burden on Germany. Perhaps you are operating under the delusion that the US is run by the "Jews." If your problem is with the US, what it does and how it does it, I have news for you: your problem is a WHOLE LOT bigger than the "Jews."

JeffM

Vic wrote: "Americans may be optimistic by nature, but they are very dissatisfied with the job performance of President Bush:
From today's (right-wing) Manchester Union Leader:"

"The latest AP-Ipsos poll puts approval for Bush's handling of the war at only 38 percent and his overall job approval at only 42 percent. (In addition, 50 percent of the country says he is a dishonest and only 48 percent says he is honest.)"

The Manchester Union Leader may be conservative, but they are publishing an AP-Ipsos poll. AP is left, left, left. And you're implying that everyone except the 38% who approve of Bush's handling of the war, that they're now against the war and against Bush. I'd say one-third of the population is getting increasingly frustrated with Bush, because he's not pushing the war aggressively enough. The leftwing pollsters are never going to ask questions to draw this response out. So, if you add the 38% and 33%, that makes 71% of Americans pro-victory in the war. 29% lean toward Michael Moore.

Right now, all over the news is Cindy Sheehan, who's camped outside Bush's Crawford Texas ranch demanding that he meet with her. The MSM is giving her unrestrained access in her quest to try to embarass the President and she's had full opportunities to put out her moonbat, anti-American, anti-semitic, anti-Bush, anti-war opinions. In other words, extremely sympathetic and as usual biased coverage by the MSM. Who's missing from this picture?

No Democrat, anti-war politicians have gone to Crawford or sent press releases backing "the grieving Mom" Cindy Sheehan. Why not? If these polls are right, the Democrats should be putting metal to the pedal. As practical politicians, they know better. They know these polls are crap. The American People rightly do not trust the Democrats with national defense, which kills any national Democrat running for President.

Now, the 50% who believe Bush is dishonest, simply shows what the power of 5 years of unrelenting propaganda can do, combined with the Bush teams terrible communications capability. I pulled my hair out during the 2000 election campaign over their communications incompetence. It hasn't gotten any better.

Zyme wrote: "Secondly after our "reunification" (while i would only say we are truely reunited when austria is with us again) we lost the mood to listen to other countries telling us what to do. We rather want to go "den deutschen Weg" (Schröder) again and do whats best for our own country. And when interests of countries are not the same, this can lead to different politics and conflicts - with the united states just like with any other country."

It's interesting to hear the opinion of the younger set. Please encourage your friends to post here too. The Big Germany vs Small Germany debate goes back at least to the 1848 revolution and the Pauluskirche. Austria and Germany were only united from 1938 and 1945. Germany has always had very strong regional differences, which is why a strong federalism is their best shot.

As to not listening to other countries telling Germans what to do....whoa. We're heading into Paranoialand. Here's a phrase from the first sentence of the Declaration of Independence: "...a decent respect to the opinions of mankind...". It doesn't make sense to stop listening to other countries, but Germany's been making it's own way since 1949.

No one has any problem with Germany doing what's best for Germany, the problem is identifying what is best for Germany. Before the UN Security Council voted, Gerhard Schroeder pipes up during his last campaign and says under no circumstances will Germany provide troops for the battle for Iraq. Schroeder dumps on the UN, dumps on the US, dumps on the UK, dumps on his NATO commitments, all done unilaterally for his own, personal, short-term political survival. Nothing there about what is best for Germany. Schroeder's saying 'l'etat c'est moi'.

In my opinion, the only way to avoid an Iraq War was for the West to stand united. But noooo, France and Germany had to do what was "best" for themselves. Was it really the best? No one would have begrudged Germany not sending troops to Iraq, that happened during the first Gulf War, but you do not stab the US in the back and throw wrenches in the works and end up getting more American soldiers and Iraqis killed. Is that what's "best" for Germany? Is conflict with the United States "best" for Germany? Is anti-American propaganda throughout the German media "best" for Germany?

Americans are seeing that Germany has a problem with balance. It's all extremes, militarism or pacificism with nothing in between. Frankly, I can't wait for the '68er generation to leave politics, I think the younger people are more sensible.

I voted for W and I would also answer that I'm dissatisfied on how he's handling Iraq.

We're not being tough enough, and a lot of people feel that way.

"Jews represent such a tiny minority in germany, and the audience they still get is far too much according to that."

Jews are indeed a tiny minority in Germany, and form a much smaller portion of the populace of the Netherlands, Denmark, France, Italy, Austria, Czech republic, and Poland than they once did. So why do they demand so much attention?

Could it possibly be an - event? A certain period of time when they - disappeared? Who was responsible? Probably nobody alive, but even so I think the memory shouldn't be allowed to fade quite so quickly.....

"We're not being tough enough, and a lot of people feel that way."

Well that means you're now for Kerry - or maybe Dean now, eh Sandy? ;)

Must be - it says it in the polls!

In an alternate universe, Don.

Which is where a lot of polls come from.

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