(By Ray D.)
I almost couldn't believe my eyes when I first read an email from Christian (20) one of the young participants in our rally for German-American friendship. But then I remembered where I was...Germany.
Christian wrote:
"I was in a store with the same jacket on that I wore to the demonstration when two older individuals (both around 60) approached me and asked whether it was me that had appeared on television coverage of the rally.
I acknowledged skeptically and then they went off: How could I, hopefully a healthy human being, support such a Fascist who simply killed so many thousands of people. They said I should be ashamed because of that and shouldn't have spoken on television. They then further compared Bush with Hitler (as is so often the case in Germany) and identified themselves as teachers. They said, and I quote: "You are really a Nazi, Bush is just as bad as Hitler if not worse, and believe me, my wife and I know that, we are both History teachers."
This is the sort of tolerance that one can expect here in Germany. You are tolerated as long as you share the common opinion that Bush is an evil Fascist. As soon as you so much as make a peep that you might support Bush or America you are written off as a Nazi and a Fascist by many on the Angry Left in Germany. Unfortunately, this is not an isolated incident...
The irony in all of this is that the real Nazis in Germany absolutely despise George W. Bush and the USA and have vehemently opposed all US military action, especially in Iraq:
![]()
2004 Neo-Nazi propaganda stickers from left to right:
1. Peace Instead of US Wars! 2. Germany for the Germans! 3. Stop the World Arsonist USA and their German Henchman!
One thing is clear: Anti-American hatred has united the extreme right and the extreme left in Germany.


Two birdbrains with alligator mouths. Wait 15 years and they'll both be singing Das Lied von der Erde, two meters under. Age cures all disorders.
Posted by: PacRim Jim | March 01, 2005 at 10:09 AM
I know such incredible encounters. When I visited a friend of mine, her aunt was there and when it came to discussing Iraq she (about 50 years old) said "There is a new Hitler now"... Saddam Hussein? - No: "BUSH!"... And then she said something about Scholl-Latour and his crap, that she read a book of him. Being told that Saddam was also a threat to Israel, attacked Israel with Scud missiles during the last war and supported suicide bombers and their families, she said "Eh, the dirty Jews in Israel. Leave me alone with them!" ... Actually she is of Polish origin, but obviously had adapted fully to the conventions of her German home. Especially in the older generation of Polish, there is a strong antisemitism, younger people don't share. Her views about Bush are modern today, why should she change her mind? Few people will disagree with her.
Posted by: EuroNeuzeit | March 01, 2005 at 10:50 AM
Nice "Appeal to Authority"-arguement there by those two: "Beleive us, because we are history teachers!"
Wonderful. Most history teachers I know have a good grasp of the past, but sadly not of the present. What's next? Am I to believe my butcher or baker when it's up to the political of Lebanon and Syria? *laughs*
But it's a sad but true thing. The "You are a Fasicst" mace is far too often wielded.
Posted by: Wired | March 01, 2005 at 12:39 PM
Pro-Ossama Bin Laden Professor, Ward Churchill, who teaches at the University of Colorado, is under investigation and may lose his job.
Maybe there will be positions for these two old farts. They would thrive in a typical American humanities department.
(For the uninitiated who live on the left bank of the Atlantic, Professor Churchill published an essay where he equated the victims of 9/11 as "little Eichmanns" that deserved their painful deaths.
Since he teaches at a public university, where unlike Harvard or Stanford, his salary is paid by Colorado tax payers, his credentials have been under strict scrutiny.
Apparently, Churchill received his tenure as a professor, claiming that he was an American Indian. He received tenure before many qualified Americans, despite the fact that Churchill does not have a PHD.
An investigation has determined that Churchill does not have any Indian blood in him. In contrast, the real Churchill, Sir Winston Churchill, was 1/12 Cherokee. {His mother, Lady Spenser, was an American})
Posted by: George M | March 01, 2005 at 01:10 PM
This is the sort of tolerance that one can expect here in Germany. You are tolerated as long as you share the common opinion that Bush is an evil Fascist. As soon as you so much as make a peep that you might support Bush or America you are written off as a Nazi and a Fascist by many on the Angry Left in Germany.
Of course, the national requirement (or perhaps tendancy), if you will, that people march in the same direction or face social opprobium was one of the reasons why Germany was susceptible to national socialism in the first place, and why then eastern Germany was so good at being Communist, all within the space of a generation.
Posted by: Jack | March 01, 2005 at 01:10 PM
Being called a Nazi is more than being called Fascist.
Fascism can be defined with universal characteristics. National Socialism is a specific form of Fascism and was in power during the darkest time of German history, responsible for genocide of the European Jews and the start of World War II, warcrimes, occupation of other countries. In the mind of the two "teachers" there is maybe a virtual genocide against Muslims and only they and their allies can see it. And there is also complete confusion about the difference between tyranny and democracy and who is who in their heads, typical.
These two "history teachers" have certainly no clue, neither about the past nor the present. Maybe they taught their propaganda in the former "German Democratic Republic". Sadly some of these examples also teach in West Germany today.
Posted by: EuroNeuzeit | March 01, 2005 at 01:17 PM
While I have had difficult encounters myself, I still love my adopted homeland. I have returned to the country of my father's family who escaped from Germany during a religous purge.
In my current career as an English teacher, I have the opportunity to meet a cross section of the German people. From the undereducated to corporate leaders, there is a common hatred of G. W. Bush and Co. I hear that people believe that 50% of American think the same way too. I have delicately probed the thoughts of my family in the United States. Out of the eight siblings, only two disagree with the current presidential administration. I have also maintained contact with friends who also show a wide margin of approval for G.W. Bush. So the 50% figure can only be based on the election results from last year. It is true that there was nearly an even split in votes, but this doesn't mean that there is the same split nationally. Remember one thing, the voters who turned out represented only 58% of registered voters. We have no idea how the other 42% of registered voters would have voted. About 123 million people voted, out of a country of around 300 million people those who voted for other candidate other than G.W. Bush accounted for 46.84% of the total vote.
60,257,040 people voted for other candidates than for G.W. Bush, this equals 20.8% of the population. These candidates included John Kerry, Ralph Nader, Michael Badnarik, Michael Peroutka, David Cobb, Leonard Peltier, Roger Calero, Walt Brown, Thomas Harens, Gene Amondson, Bill Van Auken, John Parker, Charles Jay, Stanford Andress, Earl Dodge. That's right, there were 15 candidates for President of the United States. There were numerous other write in names for President as well. That doesn't mean that all of these candidates were against what Bush has done in his Presidency.
The information given, was obtanied from Dave Leip's Atlas of U.S. Presendential Elections. You can find his site at this url: http://www.uselectionatlas.org/USPRESIDENT/frametextj.html.
Happy reading!
Posted by: N. Hale | March 01, 2005 at 01:34 PM
With teachers like those two woodenheads, it is no surprise that voters are so dumb that they plump for asses like Schroeder and Fischer.
Posted by: Former CNN Watcher | March 01, 2005 at 01:59 PM
During the run-up to the Iraq war, I was called a Nazi by Germans on two separate occasions because I expressed support of Bush's policies.
And "Bush is like Hitler" is a standard opinion here. I've been confronted with this one several times.
Ignorance and projection is what accounts for this - ignorance of what Bush and America are really about, and projection of their own Nazi past onto America.
Posted by: kid charlemagne | March 01, 2005 at 03:01 PM
I was on the Uni Heidelberg in '75-'76, every Professor but one was an out and out Lefty. The one exception was just before retirement. I took Foreign Policy of the USA for laughs. There I learned that US foreign aid to Africa was made up of greenbacks, where every dollar was a little green soldier of US-Imperialism. Of course, if the US didn't send development aid to Africa, that was evidence of the inhuman greed and callousness of Americans. I also learned that the Oil Companies controlled American foreign policy. When I asked how can that be, when the US supports Israel, which has no oil and that support causes problems with the entire Arab world, which does have the oil. Answer, Oil Companies hated the Arabs and where controlled by the Jews.
There were 14 kinds of Marxist groups. There were demonstrations in support of Baader-Meinoff and accusations that they didn't committ suicide, but were murdered by the police. There were scurilous posters of Franz-Josef Strauss, the number one boogey-man. The American involvement in Vietnam was still a topic, but the boat people, the re-education camps, the impoverishment and starvation of the Vietnamese people was not mentioned. Pol Pot in Cambodia was supported by some far out groups and ignored by everyone as Pol Pot murdered a third of the Cambodian people.
This is what I learned in Europe about the left, the claim to love the people, but they don't care if the people are in reality getting murdered or oppressed. As long as they can feel morally superior to everyone else. Within 10 years I became a libertarian and voted for Reagan. Thank you Germany for my education.
Posted by: Jabba the Tutt | March 01, 2005 at 03:27 PM
Unfortunately, "Jabba the Tutt", most people are not clever enough to be immune against a propaganda that can make use of good words like PEACE just to support their allies, e.g. Pol Pot.
Lots of people buy into the propaganda blindly. The unwillingness to have own ideas instead of following masterminds is one of the biggest problems.
"As long as they can feel morally superior to everyone else." - Not only that. They don't feel guilty any more because they don't starve, are not oppressed etc. while others do. They feel like they do something about it, while as a matter of fact they don't!
Posted by: EuroNeuzeit | March 01, 2005 at 03:40 PM
How can any of these idiots claim moral superiority to George W Bush?
War is bad eh - tell it to those liberated from the hell of German rule in 1945
Posted by: Pogue | March 01, 2005 at 04:24 PM
Yes, and this two history teachers were around sixty, so, only because the "bad" war it was possible for them to live in freedom, and to express their opinion, also such stupid opinions as the sorty told us.
And now imagine what will happen to their pupils, what are they gonna vote? Against who and for which things are they gonna demonstrate?
German`s schools are the the root of all evil, that`s where young people are confronted with so unbeliavable stupid proaganda, and how it works you could see when George W. Bush came to Europe, it`s a shame...
Posted by: Ch. Arm | March 01, 2005 at 05:23 PM
Nate Hale:
"60,257,040 people voted for other candidates than for G.W. Bush, this equals 20.8% of the population."
Remember that Bill Clinton only received 42% of the vote in 1992 and 48% in 1996. His supporters called 1996 a "land slide."
Every blue moon, the U.S. has a credible 3rd party challenge. In 1992 and 1996, it was Ross Perot, who in 1992, won the State of Maine and received 19% of the popular vote.
Also, the total number voting is not reflective of demographics. If it is true that only 120 million of the population voted, you have to take in to consideration: those that are legally too young (Under 18 YO); those that are too old or are mentally incompetent; and those who are either legal or illegal aliens. When you take these factors into consideration, 120 million is realistic.
Posted by: George M | March 01, 2005 at 05:57 PM
We(Americans)just need to get over Europeans. I am/was an anglophile and very interested in European culture and history as well up until very recently. The hatred for us by the people of Europe (including Britain) was a great surprise for me, but is also very clear. They will use the excuse "we hate your government, not you". Well, the government really does represent us, and I believe that European governments really do represent their people as well. They will also use the excuse "our media is dominated by Socialist American-haters, the people only get this biased view of America". This is true, but the problem is that their media is giving them exactly what they want. There are brave souls like David and others trying to counter that, but the vast majority of Europeans flatly reject what they say. They love their socialist system, they see it can't last, they see their culture disintegrating, and the blame us. I'm so bored with Eu-ro-sphere!
Posted by: Mark | March 01, 2005 at 08:51 PM
In contrast, the real Churchill, Sir Winston Churchill, was 1/12 Cherokee.
His mother was an American whose family claimed Iroquois ancestry. But this is in dispute.
Posted by: Angie Schultz | March 01, 2005 at 10:56 PM
Yea, Bush is like Hitler. Those German teachers would know.
/sarcasm
The same thing happens here in Berkeley. This guy came up to the College Republican table and said "Sieg Heil!" Thinking that he was going to piss us off, I told him "Nein! Das ist wrong! You should raise your right arm as a Salute! JA! Anything for McBushHitler! Ja!"
I just tell this kind of people to piss off. They are not worth my time. I would rather spend time converting other college students into the conservative and Republican fold, rather than waste my time arguinging with Kool-Aid drinking moonbats such as those two History professors.
Posted by: Carl Densing | March 02, 2005 at 12:15 AM
@George M.
Perot almost won Maine. He was in a close second to Clinton.
Posted by: Carl Densing | March 02, 2005 at 12:17 AM
Amihasser, a bag of shit who has freed 50 million people from dire brutal oppressive tyranny and given them the opportunity for Democratic freedom. Just like Hitler? I don't recall Hitler helping anyone build a representative government.
You don't deserve to breathe free air. May I suggest you migrate to North Korea and give your preferred lifestyle an upclose look? Shouldn't you try living in tyranny before you champion it for tens of millions of other people?
Posted by: | March 02, 2005 at 01:13 AM
I couldn't agree more with Mark. I also was a complete Anglophile and inhaled European history. But, the Iraq War and war on terrorism has truly shown me that my love of Europe has been misplaced. Frankly, I have grown to hate and despise France and Germany, with Britain a close second. What does Europe expect? Their unveiled hatred of my country is beginning to sour many, many Americans in their feelings for Europe.
I live in the Tampa Bay area of Florida. For some reason we have far too many German tourists. At one time I would have welcomed them. Now I can barley tolerate them or their obnoxious behavior. I was at a Devil Ray's (baseball) game last September when four German tourists felt perfectly comfortable booing our national anthem. German manners leave a lot to be desired.
Posted by: Arlene | March 02, 2005 at 01:22 AM
Amihasser,
You're not very bright, are you?
Posted by: | March 02, 2005 at 05:50 AM
@ Amihasser
Actually, you are half-right. Bush is a piece of shit. But he is also a smart piece of shit. A piece of shit that won the election all odds. A piece of shit who could have pulled out of Iraq early. A piece of shit who's doctrine is currently working with the gradual unraveling of Arab dictators and who's war policy has nearly eradicated Al-Queda in three years and forced OBL to send out weekly videos and telling us how it's a bitch hiding in a cave that long. On second thought, why don't we give this piece of shit a Nobel Peace Prize for doing so much for world peace, for freeing 50 million people, and for closing the world's largest nuclear smuggling ring. I'm just dreaming.
@Arlene
France under Chirac represents all the bad about Europe. Its corrupt government, penchant for economic centralization, weak armed diplomacy, and intellectual snobbery has made France the poster boy for the "Bad European". Germany on the other hand, I can forgive. Americans have a more favorable view of Germany than France according to the latest Gallup poll. (I think 70%+ have a favorable view of Germany). As for Britain, they've done more to help us than hurt us (though they have done more to hurt themselves with its curbing of free speech so as not to offend Muslims and, up to now, unbridled immigration of unassimilable people.
In short, Chirac's France sucks. Unrepetant, lazy, puerile, welfare-indulging citizens of a socialist utopia.
Posted by: Carl Densing | March 02, 2005 at 06:40 AM
France is a country that was an enemy Germany long ago. It is because of Adenauer, Kohl and others that there is a German-French-friendship now. Opposing French politics, being the European ally No. 1 of the US would certainly make the French very angry. Yet, it is right, unfortunately lots of Germans agree that Bush was a problem while tyranny and terrorists as well as radical Islam are widely ignored - also in the perception of Israel's fight against terror. It includes what some people think about the RAF terrorists. Some people think that this problem has disappeared because politics in West Germany has so successfully integrated leftists. The collaps of the Soviet Union and with it the reunification of Germany (GDR supported RAF, provided RAF terrorists with hideouts) is mainly ignored. Or take the ETA in Spain. ETA continues the fight. There is experience with terror, but it is not understood well enough, especially by the people. There is still the myth of terrorists as lonely freedomfighters alive, totally ignoring the fact that terrorists are organized in really company-like organizations. It is not seen that terror requires lots of money, for planning, material, hiding... When you want to see how Europe is working, you have to see that Europe first of all tries to create a consensus which implies France can live with it and Russia can live with it. Sometimes it would be better to have a discussion about the real problems with the USA and accept that some countries disagree and are pro US (e.g. like European allies in the Iraq war). It is virtually impossible to see a strong and pro American Europe as long as important countries like France and Russia play their own game. E.g. Germany is dependent on Russian natural gas ... But when you really want to accept a moral duty and follow an ideal of democracy you cannot be everybody's darling. As I said, most Germans actually don't want to fight for ideals, not even verbally. But if they would like to, they would have friends in the US, but certainly enemies around. And enemies in the country... Some of the muslims in the muslim communities of Europe are strongly against the US and against Israel.
Posted by: EuroNeuzeit | March 02, 2005 at 08:58 AM
We keep hearing about the disconnect betwen madia opinion and real public opion thta people express privately in Germany and France. Maybe we should be hoping for an Orange Revolution in Old Europe.
Maybe Ukrainiana and Arabs are capable of having democracy but French and Germans aren't. Maybe they prefer to keep their aristocrats in charge so they can affect airistocratic disdain of the rest of the world. So far there is no sign of a democracy movement in either country.
Posted by: Jim | March 02, 2005 at 06:06 PM
By the way, isn't their a ferocious insult law in effect in Germany? And isn't "Nazi" considered an insult in Germany anymore? Why isn't that young man suing those two old cadavers for their kidneys?
Posted by: Jim | March 02, 2005 at 06:08 PM
Anne, I have to say though, that you and I are still reading David's blog, which seems to show we both still care about Europe in spite of what we said above. We're just really pissed off and saddened about our erstwhile friends and ancestors! Where'd they all go? Who are these effete aliens that replaced them?
Posted by: Mark | March 02, 2005 at 06:25 PM
@CarlDensing
I think that most Americans do have a positive feeling for Germany. I also think that that favorable impression is eroding very quickly. We are hammered by their hatred almost on a daily basis. Most Americans do not pay very close attention to what goes on in other countries, but that is also changing. A good friend of mine, who is totally apolitical, invited my husband and me for dinner. She asked what she should make. I asked for hot German potato salad and her home-made bratwurst. She laughed and said, "I don't make that Euro-swill any more, it's either American of nothing!" In practically the same breath she added, "And what's up with this carneval and the obscene Bush floats that these Germans think are so funny?"
I was stunned that she even knew about the carneval much less was angry about it. This is just a small incident, but indicative of what of is starting to happen over here.
I am very angry at Germany. France I couldn't care less about; they are what they are. Britain's hatred of America hurts more than angers. It's equal to a parent hating their own child.
Posted by: Arlene | March 02, 2005 at 08:51 PM
@Mark
Actually, I view Europe the same way I would view a snake. I am repulsed by it, but can't look away.
(me, smiling)
Posted by: Arlene | March 02, 2005 at 09:08 PM
We often read about America's optinion of the French. When did this record exactly start? Is it since America has learned that France is not very grateful for liberation from the Nazis and following its own power ambitions? Or is there an older record?
Maybe coalitions and hostilities change ... Although there can be hard cases.
Posted by: EuroNeuzeit | March 02, 2005 at 09:35 PM
It was pretty much after WWII that American became irked at France in general, all though Mark Twain had some choice words about France. As telecom progessed and information became easier to obtain, we've become more annoyed with France.
Posted by: Jewels (aka Julian) | March 02, 2005 at 09:52 PM
--Bush is no Nazi. He simply is a bag of SHIT. Exactly: a evil smelling bag of APE-SHIT. And you, the complete entourage of the WIXXER-community, you know that too.--
That reply is just...pitiful. You can't do better?
See, the brain atrophies when living in a museum.
We're getting out as fast as we can, anything to help your economy.
Posted by: Sandy P | March 02, 2005 at 09:53 PM
@Amihasser
You really are quite funny and you have such a colorful way of expressing yourself. As Sandy P said we are getting out as fast as we can. We know when we are not welcomed. Now I wish your hideous German tourists would also recognize where you are not welcomed.
Posted by: Arlene | March 02, 2005 at 10:16 PM
The above mentioned raving Troll isn't interested in arguments or in this blog at all.
Just ignore it - it's comment will eventually be deleted anyway.
Posted by: Schakal | March 02, 2005 at 10:41 PM
@Amihasser, everyone has an asshole, only some speak with them.
Posted by: Jabba the Tutt | March 03, 2005 at 01:41 AM
Ami-Hasser,
Just what is it with Germans and botty humor? Most people over here give that up after second grade after kindergarten. But then you appear to be a developmentally arrested sort, so I can't blame you. I blame your education system. Then again, it would explain that lovely float that was made for Carnival.
Posted by: Jewels (AKA Julian) | March 03, 2005 at 09:01 AM
I hear that people believe that 50% of American think the same way too. I have delicately probed the thoughts of my family in the United States. Out of the eight siblings, only two disagree with the current presidential administration. I have also maintained contact with friends who also show a wide margin of approval for G.W. Bush.
So what does that prove? Your friends and relatives are likely to have similar political ideals as you, so it's not a big surprise that most of them support Bush.
So the 50% figure can only be based on the election results from last year. It is true that there was nearly an even split in votes, but this doesn't mean that there is the same split nationally. Remember one thing, the voters who turned out represented only 58% of registered voters. We have no idea how the other 42% of registered voters would have voted.
Right, we don't know. But we KNOW that all who didn't go to vote can't think that negative about George W. Bush, otherwise they would have gone. And we know that they don't think very positive about him, otherwise they would have gone, too.
More interesting is that in a CNN/USA/Gallup poll 55% of those questioned sayed they had a favorable view of George W. Bush (versus 52% who had a favorable view of Kerry). So 45% of Americans who are interested enough in policy to answer to the questions asked by the pollsters have an unfavorable view of Bush.
60,257,040 people voted for other candidates than for G.W. Bush, this equals 20.8% of the population. These candidates included John Kerry, Ralph Nader, Michael Badnarik, Michael Peroutka, David Cobb, Leonard Peltier, Roger Calero, Walt Brown, Thomas Harens, Gene Amondson, Bill Van Auken, John Parker, Charles Jay, Stanford Andress, Earl Dodge. That's right, there were 15 candidates for President of the United States. There were numerous other write in names for President as well. That doesn't mean that all of these candidates were against what Bush has done in his Presidency.
If you compare the percentage of votes Bush got to Kerry's, you see that Bush has the second closest margin of victory in the popular vote of any presidential candidate in the past 50 years.
But that doesn't really matter, because the campaigns are focused on winning in the electoral college, not on winning the popular vote.
Actually, you are half-right. Bush is a piece of shit. But he is also a smart piece of shit. A piece of shit that won the election all odds. A piece of shit who could have pulled out of Iraq early. A piece of shit who's doctrine is currently working with the gradual unraveling of Arab dictators and who's war policy has nearly eradicated Al-Queda in three years and forced OBL to send out weekly videos and telling us how it's a bitch hiding in a cave that long. (Carl Densing)
Are you kidding? Bush has not done much to prevent terrorism (the number of Islamistic terror attacks is rising worldwide!).
Posted by: aphilosopher | March 03, 2005 at 04:18 PM
aphilosopher
Point taken.
Bush is responsible for all the evil in the world.
Don't believe me ask almost any european, they will tell you he is.
But then that is your position too or it would appear to be by your last comment.
Posted by: Joe | March 03, 2005 at 11:18 PM
Of course, Europeans will say Bush is responsible, but Europeans, especially Old Europeans, are stupid.
Posted by: | March 04, 2005 at 12:19 AM
People equating Bush to Hitler have obviously taken leave of their senses. Would it help to point out to these America and Israel haters that Hitler, Eichmann, and every dictator from Berlin and Rome to Madrid and half way around the globe through Central and South America to Manila, all grew up under Catholicism first and then became socialists?
President Bush is neither, but John Kerry would have been a perfect candidate. Didn’t he also try to have the book about his Vietnam service banned?
Posted by: clutter | March 04, 2005 at 01:32 AM
Bush is responsible for all the evil in the world.
Don't believe me ask almost any european, they will tell you he is.
But then that is your position too or it would appear to be by your last comment.
I only said that IMHO Bush has not been that successful in fighting terrorism. If you think that this means that Bush is responsible for all evil in the world - well, then think what you want, but you are wrong. Oh, by the way, most Europeans don't think what you think they think.
Would it help to point out to these America and Israel haters that Hitler, Eichmann, and every dictator from Berlin and Rome to Madrid and half way around the globe through Central and South America to Manila, all grew up under Catholicism first and then became socialists?
Did Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong-Il grow up under Catholicism? How about Stalin and Mao? (If I remember correctly, Ulbricht and Honecker grew up under PROTESTANTISM.) You also don't explain us why Catholics have been persecuted in so many socialist dictatorships.
Posted by: aphilosopher | March 04, 2005 at 06:39 PM
@ aphilo
I never even assumed every Catholic to be a dictator; some have certainly opposed those Fascists. Didn’t the Jesuits’ infamous injunction proclaim, “Give us a child until he is six years old and we have a convert for life?” Didn’t Pope Leo XIII (†1903) denounce Americanism and any type of freedom? Are you denying Catholicism’s teaching even in the first half of the twentieth century was fertile ground for authoritarian rule? If you check the globe, you will see that Berlin to Manila covers the Western Hemisphere. Can you name one who was not Catholic? Some are described as devoutly Catholic.
Posted by: clutter | March 04, 2005 at 08:50 PM
@ EuroNeuzeit
American opinions of France have been in decline since about 1793.
There was war (undeclared but real) between the US and France in the late 1790's.
Napoleon III was extremely supportive of the Confederate rebellion in the 1860's.
Americans viewed French behavior after WWI toward Germany as hostile and provoking. The US was so disenchanted with French views that it did not sign the Versailles Treaty but signed a separate peace with Germany.
Americans viewed Vichy with profound distaste as a compliant German puppet that had strong popular support (unlike say Poland or Denmark or Norway.)
(THe French conveniently forget that US casualties in WWII were inflicted by primarily four countries, Germany and Japan, followed by Italy and France. The US military cemeteries in Algeria represent Americans killed by French fire. Of course it is true that de Gaulle's Free French were taking causalties on the US side at the same time.)
American relations with de Gaulle were always prickly. For example, the US wanted to reduce American casualties in North Africa by making a political deal with Darlan and Giraud, but de Gaulle was obstructionist, thereby indirectly increasing American casualties.
Basically, Americans have liked France politically exactly twice: once during the American Revolution when French troops and naval squadrons were critical in assisting the US achieve its independence, and again during WWI when Americans sympathized with what they viewed as unprovoked aggression against Belgium, Luxembourg, and France.
Justin Vaisse has written an interesting essay, from a very traditional French view, on the history of American attitudes toward France. I do not at all agree with Vaisse's diagnosis, which is of course that the poor benighted Americans got it wrong every time. Nor do I agree that he really understands the full depth of American feelings, which stem from a very long history of unhelpful or outright inimical French actions. But he does summarize many of the historical incidents that have established American views of France.
Posted by: Jeff | March 04, 2005 at 09:51 PM
Didn’t Pope Leo XIII (†1903) denounce Americanism and any type of freedom?
I only know of one type of freedom, and this type of freedom has nothing to do with any nationality.
To come to your actual point: I did a Google-search and didn't find out anything about Pope Leo XIII. denouncing any type of freedom. Perhaps you could name me your source for this claim?
Are you denying Catholicism’s teaching even in the first half of the twentieth century was fertile ground for authoritarian rule?
I don't really believe it. In fact, IMHO Catholicism had only adopted a rather authoritarian moral value system in which most people believed at that time.
If you check the globe, you will see that Berlin to Manila covers the Western Hemisphere. Can you name one who was not Catholic? Some are described as devoutly Catholic.
It is no wonder that the dictator of a predominantly Catholic nation is a Catholic. If you consider that, your argument that a lot of dictators were Catholics becomes much less persuasive.
And it's also no wonder that a dictator of such a nation often tries to use religion for his propagandisitic goals. But while, e.g., Adolf Hitler's regime tried to use the churches in that way, the Nazi-party planned "the complete destruction of Christianity".
Posted by: aphilosopher | March 09, 2005 at 09:09 PM