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It is a difficult line to walk: accepting other cultures while defending and preserving ones own. There is no ideal solution to this sort of problem, but policies can hopefully be balanced enought to keep INEVITABLE strife as contained as possible. Different societies will always be suspicious of each other; the key is keep the flames of conflict from blazing too high. After these previous platitudes, don't ask me how the above can be reached. That is for wiser heads then mine to decide.

this o. romanus seems pretty dense or perhaps has been sleeping for the last 10 years or so.
the murder was not the product of one lone fanatic as romanus states, but, as we know, a planned and coordinated operation involving numerous people across several european countries. more over it is one of many murders currently threatened or already committed.
politically correct to the end, romanus asks, where this hatred came from. you fool, it came from muslims. did you just land on the planet?
as for what to do, a start would be to enforce the laws of the society.

David, what happend to the little yellow boxes?

Ok, the first poster
It is a difficult line to walk: accepting other cultures while defending and preserving ones own.

Oh, get a fucking clue. When a 'culture' is based on murder, mysogyny and forced conversion, that isn't a culture, it's a war machine. Wehrmacht. Get it?

Pamela

I've been reading the letters sections of Germans publications lately. In the current Spiegel, there are a few letters referring to an article on Theo Van Gogh's murder. It's amazing how little outrage or sympathy for Van Gogh is expressed in these letters, how much of a "he deserved it" sentiment is present.

Last week Die Welt printed a letter comparing Bush's appointment of Condaleezza Rice as Secretary of State, in all seriousness, to slavery. Rice is black, you see, and Bush is a rich white southerner... unbelievable! And Die Welt is probably Germany's most conservative, pro-U.S. newspaper.

Kid Charlemagne

Pam, it's kinda hard to abuse someone into your line of thinking. Discussions are a two way process. You have the right idea, in my opinion, and you need to convince others.

Look. These people want to KILL YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN. They have said so!

This is beyond arguments about the philosophical limits of tolerance or nice distinctions about when a nation's tolerant attitude becomes permissiveness.

Instead of counting angels on pinheads, try this distinction on: (A) you get to play with your grandchildren, or (B) you don't get to play with any grandchildren because your sons and daughters have had their heads cut off.

Let's see, where will Europe come out on this one? Why, let's talk about it. Perhaps then we can decide. Or not.

I still say that the core problem is the vast welfare states in Europe. Immigrants assimilate by being forced by circumstances to work. If they are poorly skilled, they tend to work in crap jobs for awhile, but are connected to the society in which they reside. In this sense, even exploitative sweatshop labor is better than "here's a welfare check, now go spend your days hanging out at the mosque listening to the local Wahhabist".

Immigrants quickly realize that they need to learn the local language to get anything other than the most menial work, and will push their kids in school to improve themselves. Some immigrants will do well enough to ultimately get "regular jobs" in established employers, others will save money and start businesses, often employing newer immigrants, and others will go to university and start careers.

But in order for this progression up the ladder to work, you have to have the following:

1. It has to be easy to start new businesses and hire and fire employees.
2. Minimum wages have to be low enough to make it worthwhile to hire low-skill (and low value) employees. If this isn't the case, employers use more capital to start businesses and will tend to replace labor with capital, and may charge higher prices.
3. Social mandates on employers need to be minimal.
4. Government welfare money should be sufficient for only the most bare-bones life, should be time-limited, and should not be available to new immigrants. The deal with the newest immigrants should be "work or leave".
5. Adult education needs to be accessible, up to and through university.

Mike H.

"Pam, it's kinda hard to abuse someone into your line of thinking. Discussions are a two way process. You have the right idea, in my opinion, and you need to convince others."

Hi Mike H. I don't try to abuse anyone into my line of thinking. I try to abuse them out of their own. The time for discussion is over. 3000 people were slaughtered on my soil. I heard the plane hit the Pentagon. Five families in my neigborhood lost loved ones. This is not about cultural diversity and/or tolerance. The only 'two-way' going on is between the Islamofacsists and me and mine. There is no fine line. So while you are gently chiding me for my 'abuse', I would have greater appreciation for your opinion of my 'right idea' if you, when Halloween rolls around, get to greet the children who have lost a parent with comforting, cheerful words.

Sorry that last post was mine AND WHERE ARE THE YELLOW BOXES FOR MY NAME? How come other people have them?

Ok, now, THAT'S abuse! ;-)

Pamela

Thanks for the translation David!

Definitely a step in the right direction. I'm convinced that if there was one country capable of grasping the stakes in this war for civilization, it would be Germany. Ofcourse I'm biased here because I come from a long line of German settlers in Texas, who managed to not only mantian pride in their heritage, but also contributed richly and assimilated heartily into their country surroundings. I bet few here know that the original Texas cowboys were German, and the most popular music amongst Latinos in South Texas and Northern Mexico is a variation of German inspired Polka..

David Your updates bring great hope to this 5th generation Texas German.

Arvin StreetGOP

Bin Laden, Al Zarkawi are enemies in their own countries not only in Europe. They are enemies because they are using terror. They are enemies for everybody in this world.

Religion is not their goal. Terror is their goal. You can spread Islamic ideas when you are peaceful. There is nothing bad about it. But the use of terror is the crime. We have to stop terrorists. It is not a fight against Islam.

Christians killed people in the name of their god. Whas it then the Christianity which killed the poeple? It was not. The people did it with their methods in their own name. Today the terrorists kill in their own name misusing Allah.

Al Zarkawi does not kill people in Iraq because of Allah.


How does it come that millions of muslims live peacefully? Because they are peaceful people. Bin Laden shares their religion but he is a terrorists and tries to get support by misusing poltics and religion.

Short: The fight against Islam is wrong.

There should be a fight against terror as a method.

It is a worldwide terror organization misusing different "reasons" for their terror. Afghanistan, Tchetchenia, Palestinians, ETA, they all use terror as a method. This is the danger, not the religion or the polical goal, they want to reach.


The second question is that the terrorists are misusing other people by the misuse of religion or culture. They educate people to hate. In the Palestinian area they are praying hate against Jews. Children want to die and kill others Jews. In Iraq people kill themselves and try to kill others. For no god, for themselves and their crazy ideas.

Bin Laden would kill even if you would be a buddhist or christian or Jews because his nature is to kill and have power among the underdogs of the world.

Klick first on preview and then type your name!!!
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Ich liebe Ihr blog! Ich fand Sie hier: http://2004weblogawards.com/archives/004352.php

(Danke "Google Translate"--Meine deutschen Sprachfähigkeiten sind- schrecklich!)

I've got you on my Blogroll now :-)

That was me...

Beth at http://bamapachyderm.com/

We tolerated the terror method of the Palestinians too long. We mentioned it as terrible and ignored it for so many years.

We tolerated all these terror attacks in the world against Americans and blamed the US for them instead of blaming the terrorists.

We explained Palestinian terror with occupation. But the terror was older than occupation and the occupation is legal and never a reason to use terror. The occupation is the result of a war which the Arab countries started.

We still ignore that Arabs want to destroy Israel by terror and denonize Scharon for using too hard methods. We say that we cannot answer violence with violence. That is wrong tolerance. This attitude supports the terrorists.

We closed our eyes when terrorists killed children in Beslan and blamed Putin for it.

Our tolerance against TERROR is wrong.

Was ist los mit unserer Gesellschaft - Medien und Menschen -, daß unser eigener Skandal, im übrigen bereits der 2. innerhalb kürzester Zeit, unsere Gemüter nicht erhitzt wie Abu Ghraib. Warum macht es dieser Skandal nicht in alle Headlines, nicht auf alle websites, nicht als click for Monate, keine Talkshows, kein Haß auf ALLE Soldaten, auf DEUTSCHLAND wie es Abu Ghraib bei uns geschafft hat?

Seit Oktober bekannt - kein Schrei nach VERTUSCHUNG.

Warum all das nicht?

Ich poste mal den Text, weil er nur einige Tage kostenlos verfügbar ist. Kann ja dann wieder gelöscht werden.

Für Erklärungen wäre ich dankbar.

Warum können nur die USA und Israel deutsche Gemüter derart außer Kontrolle bringen? Warum wird da so sehr gehaßt?

Jeder Fehler oder auch nicht verursacht ein Riesengeschrei.

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SPIEGEL ONLINE - 20. November 2004, 16:57
URL: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,328942,00.html
Bundeswehr-Skandal

General bestätigt Foltervorwürfe

Die Bundeswehr hat einen Bericht des SPIEGEL bestätigt, wonach Ausbilder der Truppe Untergebene unter anderem mit Stromschlägen gequält haben sollen. Die Vorfälle bezeichnete ein General als "grobe Pflichtwidrigkeiten". Die Unteroffiziere hätten eine inszenierte Geiselhaft "selbstständig" als Teil der Grundausbildung eingeführt.



DPA
Bundeswehrsoldaten bei der Arbeit: Alles sauber in Coesfeld?
Hamburg - Ein Militärsprecher vom zuständigen Heerestruppenkommando in Koblenz sagte, der Vorfall sei truppenintern bereits seit dem 20. Oktober bekannt. Generalmajor Ernst Heinrich Lutz hatte die Misshandlung von Soldaten dem SPIEGEL gegenüber als "grobe Pflichtwidrigkeiten" qualifiziert, die wohl einmalig seien. Diese rührten "an Grundlagen unseres Dienstes", sagte der Kommandeur des Heerestruppenkommandos in Koblenz. Die gesamte Rechtsordnung sei geschädigt worden. "Menschen wurden Objekte", sagte der General weiter.

Nach Angaben des Militärsprechers sind die staatsanwaltschaftlichen und disziplinarrechtlichen Ermittlungen noch im Gange. Er fügte hinzu, der Vorfall sei durch Zufall ans Tageslicht gekommen. So habe ein Soldat nach seiner Versetzung einem Vorgesetzten "beim Kaffee trinken" von der Geschichte erzählt. Der Vorgesetzte habe dann die Ermittlungen eingeleitet.

Von den betroffenen Rekruten habe sich keiner offiziell beschwert, sagte der Sprecher. Die Ausbilder in der Einheit hätten die inszenierte Geiselhaft "selbstständig" als Teil der Grundausbildung eingeführt.



DPA
Bundeswehr-Soldaten bei der Übung: Unteroffiziere sind ins Zwielicht geraten
Die Hauptmann und die 17 Unteroffiziere seien umgehend suspendiert worden und dürften keine Uniformen mehr tragen, sagte der Sprecher. Die Vorfälle seien bereits am 11. November bekannt gemacht worden. "Wir haben sofort gehandelt, weil es so etwas in der Bundeswehr nicht geben darf."

Die Staatsanwaltschaft Münster ermittelt inzwischen gegen die 18 Bundeswehr-Soldaten der in Coesfeld stationierten Kompanie wegen "Misshandlung" und der "entwürdigenden Behandlung von Untergebenen".

Knieend vor der Wand mit Wasser bespritzt

Zwischen Juni und September dieses Jahres sollen die Ausbilder vier Mal mit Rekruten zum Abschluss der Grundausbildung ein grausames Spiel gespielt haben - eine so genannte Geiselbefragung. Während Nachtmärschen hätten sie ihnen unterstellte Soldaten überfallen und gegen ihren Willen in Geiselhaft genommen, teilte das Heereskommando mit. Mit den Überfällen und der anschließenden Vernehmung habe angeblich das Verhalten im Fall von Geiselhaft trainiert werden sollen. Die fingierte Geiselhaft sei jedoch im Ausbildungsplan nicht vorgesehen und somit vorschriftswidrig.

Die jungen Soldaten wurden nach Informationen des SPIEGEL in einen Hinterhalt gelockt, überfallen, mit Kabelbinder gefesselt und auf einem Lastwagen - über die Köpfe graue Stiefelbeutel gestülpt - in die Kaserne gekarrt. Dort mussten sie kniend vor einer Wand verharren und wurden mit Wasser bespritzt. Zwei Soldaten wurden mit Stromstößen "im Hals-, Leisten- und Bauchbereich" gequält. Diese Details bestätigte der Sprecher nicht.

Die Ermittler haben auch Hinweise darauf, dass die Exzesse gefilmt und fotografiert wurden. Computer und andere Datenträger wurden beschlagnahmt, die Auswertung läuft. Das Wehrstrafgesetz sieht für die Delikte Haftstrafen bis zu fünf Jahren vor.

This bias called tolerance is killing our society:


"Translation: the promotion of democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq is working. The terrorists are losing. That was big news, and it was also good news. But because it benefited President Bush, the Post did not highlight that information in its story.

The Post noted that bin Laden, in his first videotaped address in three years, had mentioned the USA Patriot Act. He did more than mention it. Bin Laden joined John Kerry in opposing it. Bin Laden declared that Bush "moved the tyranny and suppression of freedom to his own country, and they called it the Patriot Act, under the disguise of fighting terrorism..." That is the same complaint made by the extreme left and radical Muslims in this country.

Taking a page from Michael Moore's film, Fahrenheit 9/11, bin Laden said that Bush "was more interested in listening to the child's story about the goat rather than worry about what was happening to the towers." That is the same old tired complaint made in Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11. It has to do with Bush being in a Florida classroom when he got news about the initial strikes on 9/11. So it is likely that bin Laden saw and approved the Michael Moore movie. Perhaps the DVD of Fahrenheit 9/11 can be remade with a personal statement from bin Laden saying, "I am Osama bin Laden and I approve this message."

A few days before that, the American member of al Qaeda who had threatened a new wave of terror attacks against the United States made a reference to the remarks of comedian Bill Maher about the cowardice of the United States launching cruise missiles compared with terrorist suicide attacks. On the September 17, 2001, episode of his ABC "Politically Incorrect" show, Maher had said, "We have been the cowards, lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly." Maher lost that show on ABC but then turned up on HBO with his own program. Osama bin Laden approved of his message as well."

Bias to the Bitter End
By Cliff Kincaid | November 19, 2004

here

"A recent Associated Press study finds that readers of all political persuasions want the following: more objectivity, fewer anonymous sources, healthy skepticism—not hostility, and more critical thinking. They want balance in coverage. One reader said, "Tell us both sides of the story, but don't feed us two sets of talking points and call it objectivity." While readers said human error goes with the territory, even more said that the media should work harder to win back public trust.

Syndicated columnist Cal Thomas isn't so optimistic. He thinks this past election cycle is the last for Big Media to be taken seriously. Cable news and the Internet are the future, he says. It's the repeated failures of media that have created the very market that made cable TV and grass-roots Internet news sites so popular and successful. The "old media" are going, going, gone. And the "new media" are in."


http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/2151_0_2_0_C/


I want it for Germany too! But here nobody cares, only single voices.

Thank you, David! Again and again.

"Dumpf und zerstörerisch wird eine Islam-Feindschaft hoffähig geredet und der Irrweg in einen Anti-Islamismus geebnet", heißt es in einer Erklärung des Kulturvereins mit der Vorsitzenden Irene Runge.

"Wir erinnern daran, wann und wie aus religiöser oder ökonomischer Judenfeindschaft mörderischer Antisemitismus geworden ist. Das macht uns misstrauisch gegen jede selbstgefällige Polemik, die den Islam und mit ihm die gesamte muslimische Gemeinschaft zur verdeckt sprudelnden Quelle jenes brutalen extremistischen Terrors erklärt, der gerade auch gegen unser Volk gerichtet ist."


@Pamela

Oh, get a fucking clue. When a 'culture' is based on murder, mysogyny and forced conversion, that isn't a culture

You're not talking about Christianity, are you?

Religion in general is a bad thing for the human race. Without religion, hundreds of millions of people wouldn't have been killed, murdered, burned, oppressed, discriminated against, sacrificed, persecuted, dispossessed, etc.

This applies to all denominations, including the "European Christian heritage".

Church and state need to be seperate. This is not the case in Europe. In the U.S., the "religious right" is also trying to undermine this basic tenet of an open society.

In Europe, one of the designated EU commissioners, Rocco Buttiglione, a devout Christian, just let everybody in on what his faith tells him about the proper role of women, and of homosexuals, in society. This is a prime example of Christian hypocrisy. True Christianity doesn't treat women any better than Islam: It is because Western democracies are secular states that we don't have to deal with religious lunatics of all kind.

@Gabi:

Es gibt meiner Ansicht nach folgende Gründe, das dieser Skandal dann letzten Endes doch keiner wird. Die Medien bei uns sind momentan zu sehr auf die USA fixiert und werden es auch bleiben. Der Nachrichtenwert ist auch nicht wirklich berauschend. Da wurden halt ein paar Soldaten geärgert. Gut, mein Chef/meine Kollegen sind auch manchmal nicht lieb zu mir. Aber wen interessiert das denn schon. (Ich sag das absichtlich so übertrieben.) Nachrichten mit gleichen Inhalt sind nun mal nicht unbedingt was Besonderes hier in Deutschland. Ich kann mich noch an die Geschichte von den Berufschülern erinnern, die ähnliche grausame Handlungen an einem Mitschüler verübt hatten. Aber Mobbing ist bei uns nun mal kein Einzelfall.
Abu Ghraib war aber was anderes. Die USA, das große Vorbild der westlichen, zivilisierten Welt, war ein gefundenes Fressen für die Medien und das nicht nur in Deutschland. Letztenendes auch nur ein Einzelfall, der nicht unbedingt die Wirklichkeit wiederspiegelt.

@ Gabi,

Angeblich soll es ja Fotos geben. Warte mal bis die rauskommen (normalerweise kriegt die Bild die), dann ist auch hier der Teufel los.

As for the new media: It allows people to read and watch what they want to read and watch. That's why it is so successful. If it is better or more objective than the 'old media'? I don't know since every person has his/her own worldview. An article that is critical of Bush might seem biase to you but completely objective to a left-winger.

Der Artikel geht in die richtige Richtung.
Es geht eben nicht um einen Kampf "christliches Abendland" gegen "Islam", sondern um den Kampf demokratischer, pluralistischer Staaten gegen alle Fanatiker, die andere Menschen wegen ihrer Hautfarbe, Religion, Sprache, sexuellen Orientierung usw. bedrohen und angreifen. Daß die islamischen Fundamentalisten darauf kein Monopol haben, sieht man schon daran, daß seit Anfang der 90er Jahre mehrere Dutzend Menschen in Deutschland schlicht und einfach deshalb ermordet wurden, weil sie Ausländer waren. Oder Behinderte. Oder Homosexuelle. Und viele Deutsche haben noch Beifall geklatscht.
Ich werde nie Helmut Kohls Weigerung vergessen, an der Trauerfeier für die ermordeten Türken in Solingen teilzunehmen, mit der Begründung, er lehne "Beileidstourismus" ab.
Oder den Algerier, der auf der Flucht vor Neonazis durch eine Fensterscheibe sprang und verblutete.
Unsere Kultur, unser Werte und insbesondere das Christentum sind nicht automatisch "gut", und der Islam nicht automatisch "böse". Hinzu kommt, daß viele unserer heutigen Freiheiten gegen christliche Fanatiker erkämpft wurden und nicht mit ihnen.

Chomskybot,

Kampf demokratischer, pluralistischer Staaten gegen alle Fanatiker, die andere Menschen wegen ihrer Hautfarbe, Religion, Sprache, sexuellen Orientierung usw. bedrohen und angreifen.

Da sprichst leider nur von alten Probleme, die wir im ueberigen alle schon 1000 mal durchgekaut haben.
Das neue Problem ist ein ganz anderes. Diese Bestien haben Theo van Gogh nicht wegen Hautfarbe, Religion, Sprache, sexuellen Orientierung usw. umgebracht, sondern weil sie einen Kalifenstaat hier in der EU wollen. Und den werden sie nur kriegen, solange die allgemeine Bevoelkerung entweder die Klappe haelt, oder gar keine Ahnung hat was eigentlich los ist.

Van Gogh diente in diesem als Vorbild. Und die ueblichen Verdaechtigen, wie zB der Superidiot Ulrich Kienzle haben sich auch schon entsprechend zu Wort gemeldet: Ssssshhhhhhhh. Klappe halten bevor die islamisten boese werden.

Denkst Du im Ernst das ARD oder ZDF jemals den van Gogh Film "Submission" zeigen wuerden?
Die Tatsache, dass sie ihn nicht zeigen, das ist das Hauptproblem und bevor sich das nicht aendert werden unsere Totengraeber namens Kienzle und Co. weiter graben.

Das neue Problem ist ein ganz anderes. Diese Bestien haben Theo van Gogh nicht wegen Hautfarbe, Religion, Sprache, sexuellen Orientierung usw. umgebracht, sondern weil sie einen Kalifenstaat hier in der EU wollen.

OK, schön. Aber was ist der Unterschied zu den "national befreiten Zonen", in dem jedem, der auch nur ein bißchen anders aussieht, schnell mit dem Baseballschläger klargemacht wird, daß er hier nichts zu suchen hat?
Es ist für einen Schwarzen sehr viel gefährlicher, in manchen ostdeutschen Kleinstädten herumzulaufen, als für mich in Berlin-Kreuzberg.

Chomskybot,

Klar hast Du recht und man darf dieses Problem keineswegs ignorieren.

Aber z Zt haben wir, meiner Meinung nach, ein groesseres Problem, welches den Fortbestand unserer freien Gesellschaft gefaehrdet.

Und mit diesem Problem konfrntiert, zeigen sich die ueblichen Verdaechtigen von ihrer wahren Seite. Klappe halten im Sinne eines Ulrich Keinzle, oder Muslim-feirtage einfuehren, im Sinne eines Juergen Trittin. Absolute idioten.

Der staatlichen Zensur ist bisher immer die Selbstzensur vorrausgegangen. Genau das passiert leider auch jetzt.

Luke Highwalker,

are you the reincarnation of Voltaire? Religion - a bad thing for the human race? Is this your version of toleration? Besides, secularism is also a religion and often a very evil one: Socialism, Maoism, Stalinism, Fascism; Religion of the Ratio (Robespierre), Chauvinism etc.
But to avoid a long discussion -one single question: Have you ever entered a, say, French or German gothic "Kathedrale", watched the variety of colors and shadows therein? Have you ever entered some tiny roman chapel located somewhere in the Provence and experienced which change of mood is immediately surprising you leaving the heat, the sun, the "lavande" and the world outside? Have you?

Ralph

O.k., Problemlösung: Über 20 Jahre läuft jetzt die überdrehte Einwandererdebatte in Deutschland. Unter konservativer und Rot-Grüner Regierung. Manchmal wundert man sich, wieviel Naheliegendes bei dem vielen Pro und Contra Einwanderung übersehen wurde: In großen Städten gibt es seit langem Schulklassen mit überwiegend ausländischen Schülern und mangelnden Sprachkenntnissen. Kurzum, in Niedersachsen werden erst seit letztem Jahr die Schulanfänger getestet, ob das Sprachverständnis für die Einschulung reicht. Wenn nicht, gibt es Vorschulsprachförderung. Das hatte zur Folge, daß jetzt kaum jemand wegen Sprachmängeln zurechtgestuft wird, Rangeleien und Unruhe in Grundschulen mit hohem Ausländeranteil weniger wurden, weil die Schüler jetzt miteinander reden können.Erste Ergebnisse dieser Maßnahme liefen durch die Presse. Die Chancen auf einen besseren Schulabschluss steigen usw. usf... .

Nächstes Problem wäre der Rassismus unter Einwanderern an den Schulen.

In einer Deutschlandfunk-Diskussion "Forum Pisa" wurde das z.B. thematisiert - Warum Schule bei der Null-Toleranz-Forderung so wichtig ist? Hier hat der Staat noch den größten Einfluß auf sich bildende Parallelgesellschaften.

Luke Highwalker said:

"In Europe, one of the designated EU commissioners, Rocco Buttiglione, a devout Christian, just let everybody in on what his faith tells him about the proper role of women, and of homosexuals, in society."

Buttiglione also made a perfectly sound distinction between his religious beliefs and the governing laws of the state. That distinction respects different views. Unhappily, neither you nor the Jihadis will do as much--radical Islam, we know, sees everything as religion, and you see everything as the state.

Use the force, Luke. Use the force.

Denkst Du im Ernst das ARD oder ZDF jemals den van Gogh Film "Submission" zeigen wuerden?
Die Tatsache, dass sie ihn nicht zeigen, das ist das Hauptproblem und bevor sich das nicht aendert werden unsere Totengraeber namens Kienzle und Co. weiter graben.

„Spiegel TV“ wollte den Film kommenden Sonntag auf RTL erstmalig im deutschen Fernsehen zeigen. Doch die holländische Produktionsfirma untersagte die Ausstrahlung, mit der Begründung, die erschreckende Schlacht von Gesten und Gewalttaten nicht noch weiter antreiben zu wollen. RTL hätte grundsätzlich mit einer Ausstrahlung kein Problem gehabt, sagte RTL-Chefredakteur Peter Kloeppel der BILD-Zeitung.
(http://www.zeit.de/2004/47/submission_online)

Chomskybot,


das ist doch genau der Punkt: "RTL hätte grundsätzlich mit einer Ausstrahlung kein Problem gehabt" -hätte nicht gehabt, hat RTL aber, und zwar ein offenbar unüberwindliches Problem, und so kann der Film eben nicht gezeigt werden.

Ralph

@Ralph:

Religion - a bad thing for the human race? Is this your version of toleration?

Yes, religion is undoubtedly a bad thing (see my previous comment).

The value of Western Civilization is not "Christianity", but the belief that all humans are created equal (clearly not a Christian value, since the Catholic church has for centuries discriminated against, and is still discriminating against, women and non-Christians, e.g. Jews). If people want to practice religion in private, that's fine, but they have to keep it out of politics. I am not a Christian, or a Muslim, or a Jew, but I have the same rights as Christians, or Muslims, or Jews.

In France, the separation between Church and State is strictly enforced. At least in this respect they are way ahead of a lot of other countries in Europe.

@Anthony

Buttiglione also made a perfectly sound distinction between his religious beliefs and the governing laws of the state. That distinction respects different views. Unhappily, neither you nor the Jihadis will do as much--radical Islam, we know, sees everything as religion, and you see everything as the state.

You have just admitted that Buttiglione's religous beliefs made him regard women as inferior. In that respect he is no different from those Islamo-fascists around bin Laden.

If religion leads people to discriminate against other people and regard them as inferior then religion is a problem for an open society which should treat everybody equally.

Actually, you agree with my demand for a separation of government ("the laws") and religion (the Jihadis, Buttiglione), so what's your point?

Luke,


all men are C R E A T E D equal? Did Jesus not champion "toleration" and warn his disciples: Shy away from intoleration (bigotry)? The American and English/Scottish Enlightenment was fostered by religious men, the Founding Fathers were devout, at least believing persons: And the natural law or natural justice was developped by philosophers such as St. Thomas Aquinas etc.

The legal equality (Gleichheit vor dem Gesetz) was the secularization of the equality of men facing God (Gleichheit vor Gott).

In the US there are many Christs not only tolerating but esteeming Jews and cherishing the Old Testament.

Your anti-christian/anti-religious verdict is far too simple to be true. Sorry, try it again, but do not bore me with: Religion = Bigotry. Be tolerant Luke!

Ralph

Uuups,


a typo: In the US there are many Christians; and only a tiny number of them really thinks: I am Christ. Sorry!

Ralph

Europe will lose this battle in the end if they choose to make it a battle of those who believe in religion and those who do not. The faith of the believers will be greater than those citizens who can only believe in the state. One of the reasons for this will be the failure of the state. This is now happening in france and Germany. Those nations are in decline.

It is acceptable to deny this decline just as it is acceptable to ignore the rise of Islam as a nation within a nation, as it is occurring both in france and in Germany.

I have read these last few days a call for immigrates to embrace “European Values”. At no point, have I seen what these values are. What seems to be rejected by these immigrates are the social and culture of most European nations. It is those very “freedoms” Europeans believe they have.

So if Europeans cannot accept religion within their societies how do they expect those who are immigrates to accept these values?

Hate to burst your bubble Luke, but western civilization was founded on relgious principles.

Yes, religion is undoubtedly a bad thing (see my previous comment).

The value of Western Civilization is not "Christianity", but the belief that all humans are created equal (clearly not a Christian value, since the Catholic church has for centuries discriminated against, and is still discriminating against, women and non-Christians, e.g. Jews).

The Catholic Church is hardly all of Christianity. And if you think the Catholics are bad regarding women and Jews, try the Muslims.

No, the value of western civilization as encoded in the American political system is not the equality of each (before the law), but the fact that there IS and 'each' - i.e., no collectivisim. And that comes directly from the first monotheistic faith, Judaism.

Nice try, but shallow.

I've admitted only that an open society means opinions you don't like must exist in it. My point is that the division between church and state you're harping about already exists. You want to fight an old battle that even Buttiglione recognizes.

You think an open society is a jihad against all religion. I wonder if you know how much like Lenin your views are--not very open, not very liberal, and aimed at the wrong enemy.

# Ralph

"RTL hätte grundsätzlich mit einer Ausstrahlung kein Problem gehabt" -hätte nicht gehabt, hat RTL aber, und zwar ein offenbar unüberwindliches Problem, und so kann der Film eben nicht gezeigt werden.

dem kann ich mich nur anschliessen.

Zum verrückt werden diese Grundsatzdebatten, ob Europa auf christlichen Wurzeln beruht oder nicht, oder ob diese ignoriert werden, oder.. ?

Fragt mal, ob die US-Amerikaner Kirchensteuern zahlen. Worüber wird hier überhaupt diskutiert ? Immer wenn es um gesellschafliche Änderungen in Deutschland geht, sitzt die Kirche mit am Tisch. Oder irre ich mich ?

Ich hab es.Bevor hier noch weiter die US-Europa Unterschiede weitergefeiert werden: Fordert mal Kirchensteuern für die USA. Und dann beginnen wir von vorne.

Jens,

US churches do not pay taxes. It is part of our concept of seperation of state and religion. The money one gives to a church just as the money gives to say an agency like the Red Cross, an individual can deduct a part of it from their personal income on which our taxes are caculated.

Also know that the state does not collect money or act as an agent for religion. So both are independent of each other.

More people killed by secularists like Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot than religious types.

Humans can find an ideology to wrap their killing instincts around whether it be religion or some other -ism. Silly to blame religion.

Mia

@Ralph

Did Jesus not champion "toleration" and warn his disciples: Shy away from intoleration (bigotry)?

I think you made that up. If you think otherwise please quote the relevant passage(s) from the bible.

The legal equality (Gleichheit vor dem Gesetz) was the secularization of the equality of men facing God (Gleichheit vor Gott).

You've got to be kidding. There is no equality of men and women in the bible. The bible clearly puts men above women, and the Catholic Church recognizes this to this day.

You are obviously a Christian, and I am not. I refuse to grant your beliefs any more validity than my own. You are free to practice your religion in private, but leave me, or the government, or the rest of society alone, especially since your religion violates some of my basic values, e.g. that men and women have equal rights. Again, open the bible and do some reading, you will be surprised what you'll find in there.

What we are witnessing is the forced conversion of "Old Europe" back into the fold of the real-world. How many "men in pajamas" have been predicting this on the web for years, wilst "old media" dared not broach the subject? It looks like fate and irony has decided to bitch-slap the Dutch. Why...I thought the Jihadis only had reason to hate the Americans and Israelis, oh yeah and Aussie surfers in Bali and school children in Beslan, not to mention Nepalese workers and what were thoughs German infidel tourists doing in Tunisia anyway? Europeans may very well learn what it is like to be an Israeli. Survival has a way of trumping other concerns and pretensions.

Nothing wrong with religions as long as they're treated as other ideologies. Adherents of an ideology/religion in a democracy know they have to compromise and that they have no right to impose their beliefs unto others. Adherents of islam think they can create a perfect society when their rules are implemented. In that sense it's a totalitarian ideology. Every other totaliltarian ideology has been rejected or cut to size. It's time the same happens to islam.

@Pamela

You're accusing Muslims of discriminating against women, but fail to recognize that the Bible itself puts men above women. When it comes to treating men and women equally Christianity is just as bad as Islam, or any other religion I know of for that matter.

No, the value of western civilization as encoded in the American political system is not the equality of each (before the law), but the fact that there IS and 'each' - i.e., no collectivisim. And that comes directly from the first monotheistic faith, Judaism.

Honey, western civilization is not "encoded" in the American political system. Where did you read that? The rest of your argument sounds like a Clintonian twisting of words and their meanings. Again, if you think that the bible treats men and women equally you've clearly never opened the bible to read in it.


@Mia

Humans can find an ideology to wrap their killing instincts around whether it be religion or some other -ism. Silly to blame religion.

Do you think the same about Islam then?

@Anthony

You think an open society is a jihad against all religion.

No, I don't think that.

You need to learn some basic discussion skills. One of these skills is not to put statements in your opponents mouth that he never said.

@ Joe

thanks, I only wanted to correct the statements denying Western Europe a non christian society. Here in Germany you have to pay taxes (Kirchensteuer) beeing a catholic or lutherian. Not so in the US.

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