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Bitte.

Dezember 1985:

Gerhard Schröder, stellvertretender Landesvorsitzender der SPD in Niedersachsen, reiste durch die "DDR" und wurde in Ost-Berlin unter anderem von Erich Honecker empfangen. Schröder bezeichnete sein zweistündiges Gespräch mit Honecker auf einer Pressekonferenz in Ost-Berlin als "sehr nützlich" und durch "eine sehr offene und angenehme Atmosphäre" gekennzeichnet. Schröder betonte bei dieser Gelegenheit seine Übereinstimmung mit Lafontaine, auch in der Frage einer "DDR"-Staatsbürgerschaft. Schröder: Die "DDR" sei ein Staat, sie habe ein Territorium, auf dem Territorium wohnen Menschen, also habe sie auch ein Staatsvolk, und als Folge dessen habe sie auch eine Staatsbürgerschaft. Dies sei in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland zu respektieren. Eine solche Haltung ermögliche auch eine positive Entwicklung der Beziehungen zur "DDR".

--
Germany, 1985:

Gerhard Schroeder, second in command in the (regional) Lower Saxony SPD leadership, visited the GDR where he was received by Erich Honecker. Schroeder called his two-hour talk with Honecker "very useful" and characterized by a "very candid and pleasant atmosphere". Schroeder emphasized that he agreed with Lafontaine, especially with regard to recognizing the GDR's citizenship. Schroeder: the GDR is a state with a territory on which people live, therefore it has its own citizenry and hence its own citizenship. West Germany has to accept that if it wishes to develop a positive relationship with the GDR.

Congratulations on a wonderful anniversary!

Congrats and felicitations

Don't mean to kill the mood, but isn't November 9 also one of the darkest days in German history? Kristalnacht was also on November 9.

That the Wall fell is often portrayed as miraculous, but it really wasn't. Freedom is the yearning of every living soul. Reagan and Thatcher and all of the cold war gang just ignited a spark. Brilliantly planned, and perfectly executed. The Soviet Union's evil empire fell.

I just wish it had fallen a day earlier

thank you Mr. Gorbatchow!

Why didn't we learn from the Nazi Age and WWII that Americans are always good and that we have to thank them forever?
Apart from the fact that Germany actually was thankful, you cannot expect that this effect lasts forever, and we also learned some different lessons, which may now turn against you (surprise surprise!)

1. Distrust "leadership". We are worried about a president people pray for, and people praying for their president. That's why we favored Kerry although his agenda wasn't that different. It's the style. Concerning style, Kerry is the smaller evil.

2. Distrust war in the name of "good". The simple fact is that there was no war inside America in the past 140 years. You never had the experience of bomb raids, totally destroyed cities etc. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not accusing America of WWII bombings here. I'm also talking about the victims of Nazi bombings in Britain, for example. It's simply the question of having had the experience or not. The experience of whole cities and nations looking like one block of New York in mid-September 2001 does definitely change one's attitude towards war. Once again, I'm not intending to glorify September 11th. It's all about the trauma.

3. Distrust military power, symphathize with the underdog fighting against a superior military power. That's we we favor Palestinians over Israelis. This can not only explained with the "antisemitism" buzzword. Of course, when you look at the structures inside the underdog groups, when the underdog himself turns out to be a dictator with military power, this clashes heavily with 1.) and 2.).

Contradicting the assumption that we don't have "values", I would call this our values, and you still have to prove that these values are worse lessons from Nazism than what you want us to think.

Nice bunch of reasons to hate the US you have there. That is what that is a list of reasons Germans and their media can use to justify hate the USofA. Sorry if you don't get it. Most of your wern't born yet to see WW2 and you saw very little of it's aftermath. Due to the fact the allies made sure to rebuild Germany as quickly as possible to forclose the problems that started WW2 and to contain the Soviet Union. German people were hard workers, strongly motivated and did a good job. We see your anti-US acts as a knife in our back after we rescued you from Hitler and then most of you from Stalin and the Soviet Union. It's hard to believe you are our friends when we have a peice of Solengen steel stuck in our back.

Viele von uns haben gestern im Fernsehen noch einmal die Bilder vom Mauerfall am 9. November 1989 gesehen. Mir persönlich gingen die bewegenden Aufnahmen von damals, als die ersten DDR-Bürger mit ihren Trabis nach West-Berlin fuhren und von den "Wessis" mit Jubel empfangen wurden, sehr nahe. Umso nachdenklicher hat mich eine Studie der "Stiftung zur Aufarbeitung der SED-Diktatur" und des Bonner Medienforschungsinstitut "Medien Tenor" gemacht, die 15 Jahre nach dem Mauerfall untersuchten, wie die deutschen Medien über den Prozess der deutschen Einheit berichtet haben und berichten. Die Studie kommt zu dem alarmierenden Ergebnis, dass sich die mediale Berichterstattung über die DDR-Vergangenheit in den vergangenen Jahren geradezu halbiert hat - Tendenz negativ. Kein Wunder also, dass schon jeder dritte Deutsche nichts mehr mit dem Datum "9. November 1989" anfangen kann.
Mehr zur Studie auf http://myblog.de/politicallyincorrect

@Sock Puppet of Doom:
What you describe is called "Dolchstosslegende" (dagger stabbing legend) in German and was used by the Nazis in the Weimar Republic to discredit their political opponents that were blamed for Germany's failure in World War I. Only for your information, not in order to make the U.S. equal to the Nazis.
The simple fact is that this is a killer argument that can be used against everybody and everything criticizing America in order to silence a reasonable discussion. I think in order to have a reasonable discussion here, we should avoid these killer arguments. Otherwise, I will go back to General von Steuben who has been mentioned here (even earlier) and say that you have to thank Germany for the next gazillion years.
The other simple fact is that the lessons we learned from 1933-1945 may not always be compatible to your political goals. We had Hitler, not you. And we have the right to draw political conclusions on our own, if you like it or not.
The claim that we should have exactly the same attitude towards America than 50 years ago is the same ridiculous rubbish as the claims of Sudeten- Germans who still want compensation and their country back after 60 years. The world is changing, my friend.

Chomskybot you are trolling I know. But so what.

So it is permissible for the media to lie to justify the anti-US propaganda they spew because that was all 50 years ago? I remember when the wall came down it was less than 50 years ago. Apperently the Germans have a short memory.

What is reasonable about hate talk? What is reasonable about telling lies about my country. It's not reasonable or permissible if you want to have a any kind of relationship.

Chomsky is a pure racist and antisemite but that is OK in Germany now too. Racism and hate talk from the left is always OK with the left. It is even seen in the left here in the United States.

@Sock Puppet of Doom (2)
I cannot eat as much as I want to vomit when I see your "Happy Ramadan" picture. Full stop.

@ Chomskybot:
1. you write as if you speak for all Germans. I am a German. Trust me: there is no "we". I and a number of people I know resent all the bulls you have been writing above. You are not "we". Even though currently you might well speak for an uneducated majority of Germans who fall for every possible prejudice they can find about the US
2. O.k., so you have read Chomsky. Wow. Does that mean you just read Chomsky and now follow him as the ultra-super source of truth and wisdom? If so, you are obviously quite simple minded. Chomsky has some interesting thoughts, but he belongs to a clearly defined political side and has his own agenda and issues.
3. Americans are not always good nor do they claim to be so. They (meaning the people and the government) make mistakes, they are sometimes too focused on the US being the navel of the world, I grant you that. But they brought freedom and democracy to a large number of countries in the world and as a rule these countries are better of than the rest of the world. Whats more: without them we would all speak Russian today and wave nice little read flags during the 1st of May parade (and any other day of the year). Being thankful for their liberation from Hitler and defense against the SU does not contradict being critical about todays politics if Germans deem that they do not approve with it. Thankfullness must never stop. And we should also not forget the 20 million something of Russian dying in WWII too. Their sacrifice - even if it was for Stalin and Communism and not for a better democractic world - made the victory of the allies possible.
4. I feel sorry for you if you can only snear at people who have faith, who believe in God and who pray. If you and your kind grow to a majority in Germany, the Islamo-fascist will have easy game with our country. Leadership is not bad, because the leader prays or people pray for him. Nor is agonstic or atheistic leadership good per se. Examples are ample in mankinds history.........
5.From my experience the memory of the destruction of whole cities and areas during the civil war is still livid among Americans. While they were lucky that they did not suffer the destruction Germany brought about itself in WWII, the experience of the destructions does not make us better deciders about what is good or not. Nor does the lack of such experience say anything to the contrary. But we Germans should indeed reconsider our attitude to war, because we can not continue to stand idely at the sidelines while other people fight for their freedom or their lives. I have, on numerous occassion raised my critics against the way the American Gov. argued for this Iraq war and started it on this-here blog. But now we have to see what changes are possible and how we can help to stabilize the first steps towards democracy their, like in Afghanistan. I am ashamed of my own German gov. who will not even consider to support the democratication with troops. Now is the time to act, not to contemplate. If you are looking for real evil, check ogrish.com for the beheading videos of the hostages or the killing of defenseless Nepalese or Iraqy citizens. There is your evil, there is the devil in reincarnation at work. My critisicm against Bush pales in view of these atrocities commited by Islamo-fascists! There is the enemy for all Germany stands for, for all the freedom we enjoy every day as if it was given to us by the Gods (or maybe in your case the Social-DEmocratic Party).
6. I don't think that a majority of Germans is sympathetic with the Palestinians in earnest. But I agree that we all have grown tired of this conflict and that it is hard to see that the Israeli Gov. sees fit to epmloy methods we Germans have learned by experience to detest. Like the collective punishment of whole families just because one of the family became a terrorist. Or the building of a wall separating people and country. Here we have learned lessons that make us opposing these methods. However: I can find no sympathy with terrorist at all. There are a lot of people (one of them finally about to die now) how continue to live and strive from the continuation of this conflict. AS long as they do not guarantee the Israely's right to live in secure and peaceful borders and as long as they continue to kill innocent people with bombs etc., I can feel no sympathy at all. They must get rid of their own dictators and devils first......

And finally: looking at the voting behaviour among you Germans (not only in Saxony) and looking at the unwillingsness to defend freedom and democracy actively, I fear there are a lot of lessons we did not learn from 3.Reich and WWII.

Cheerio from Old Europe

P.S.: Yes, the bombing of Dresden was a crime and should be called that and treated like that. You are right at least about that.

@Chomskybot
Why are you speaking in the third person? Are you claiming to speak for all Germans? I can assure you that not all Germans are drawing your conclusions. Not all Germans are blind to the fact that war was the only thing that stopped Hitler and the Nazis. Sometimes, war does solve problems. War defeated the Nazis, the threat of war contained the communists, and war (among other things) will break radical Islam's neck. To deny this is to deny the lessons of history.
By the way, Chomsky sympathized with Pol Pot and certain Holocaust-deniers. He is hardly a role model for the pacifism you profess to represent. It's very interesting that some leftists demand pacifism only from the West. One never hears you (or Chomsky) preaching this ideology to the Palestinians, to Islamists or other current objects of fashionable sympathy.

I spent a tour guarding the "inner german" border 25 years ago. This brings back many memories: Gitterzaun, Selbstschussgeraete, Grenz Truppen der DDR, VOPOS, Hundelagen....you name it.

I visited a German friend and his wife two years ago. They live right on the Hessen, Thuringen border. You can't see any trace of the old border today, except for the occaisional Wachturm that was left behind as a memorial.

My funniest impression was walking my 100% American Labador Retriever on the west bank of the Werra River. The Werra used to be the inner German border between parts of Hessen and Thuringen. On the other side of the River, I was eyed by a gentleman of my age with a massive, but ageing German Shepherd. I could not help but think that both of them were employed by the DDR and that both of them had lost their jobs when the wall came down.

@Pat:

1. you write as if you speak for all Germans. I am a German. Trust me: there is no "we". I and a number of people I know resent all the bulls you have been writing above. You are not "we". Even though currently you might well speak for an uneducated majority of Germans who fall for every possible prejudice they can find about the US

Sorry, this was a mistake. The reason for it was that many people from both sides write about the positions of their party in the third person. Obviously infectious.

2. O.k., so you have read Chomsky. Wow. Does that mean you just read Chomsky and now follow him as the ultra-super source of truth and wisdom? If so, you are obviously quite simple minded. Chomsky has some interesting thoughts, but he belongs to a clearly defined political side and has his own agenda and issues.

I haven't chosen the nickname "Chomskybot", credits for this go to Joe.:

My latter comment was pointed at Niklas, not Downer. Though in hindsight one could suspect that Niklas is not a real person but simply a modification of the Chomskybot. I mean, no real person in their right mind would utter such rubbish.)
(his reaction to one of my posts yesterday)

Being thankful for their liberation from Hitler and defense against the SU does not contradict being critical about todays politics if Germans deem that they do not approve with it. Thankfullness must never stop. And we should also not forget the 20 million something of Russian dying in WWII too. Their sacrifice - even if it was for Stalin and Communism and not for a better democractic world - made the victory of the allies possible.

I completely agree with you.

4. I feel sorry for you if you can only snear at people who have faith, who believe in God and who pray. If you and your kind grow to a majority in Germany, the Islamo-fascist will have easy game with our country. Leadership is not bad, because the leader prays or people pray for him. Nor is agonstic or atheistic leadership good per se. Examples are ample in mankinds history.........

No. I'm not against praying in general. But I don't want to live in a country where people pray for their leader, be it Iran or USA. Intermixture of politics and religion is something I am strictly opposed to. Examples of the disastrous consequences are ample in mankinds history. This doesn't mean that I am against politicians that pray because they feel it makes them do better work, civil rights groups that gain strength from their belief etc.

But now we have to see what changes are possible and how we can help to stabilize the first steps towards democracy their, like in Afghanistan. I am ashamed of my own German gov. who will not even consider to support the democratication with troops.

By the way, I am not against the German mission in Afghanistan. I went to a demonstration against it in October 2001, but I wasn't satisfied by the arguments. And I met "Linksruck" agitators not knowing the difference between Mudjahedin and Taliban.
But I see the "mistakes" you mentioned not as mistakes, but as flaws in the system itself. The U.S. have shamelessly cooperated with thugs and dictators just in order to stop other thugs and dictators. Remember Pinochet, the coup against Mossadeq in Iran 1953 (few people know about this), the Contras in Nicaragua. Idealism is a double-edged sword.

And finally: looking at the voting behaviour among you Germans (not only in Saxony) and looking at the unwillingsness to defend freedom and democracy actively, I fear there are a lot of lessons we did not learn from 3.Reich and WWII.

Ironically, some things that are alive in the U.S. (death penalty, detention of alien criminals without any trial e.g.) are only supported by these extreme right-wing parties here. Who will pick up Bushism when it comes to Europe? The CDU?

My memory of the wall, having lived 1000m east of the Bornholmerstrasse gate was the drabness, the paranoia, and sound of the DDR Grenzeschutz gunfire at night. I would always try to guess if it was to intimidate the local residents, or aimed at a freedom-runner.

Thank heavens that those days are over.

Pat: thank you for your words on Chomsky. He is, and has always been a disingenuous writer of silly agitprop. The thing about him is that there is no alternate vision, only spite for the nation that gave him a chance, his well being, and his robotic audience. I'm sure it goues beautifully for him in his home town of Toronto, and on US University campusses. Otherwise he has nothing to contribute to the social dialogue among the population at large.

I wonder if young Niklas realizes that these "populists" like Chomsky have nothing but contempt for the population.

Thank you, people of the United States of America!

I am deeply sad about the division between our countries and I hope we here on this weblog can help to stay in friendship together.

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Pat, you wrote:

"6. I don't think that a majority of Germans is sympathetic with the Palestinians in earnest."
I guess, you are wrong.


"But I agree that we all have grown tired of this conflict."
I am tired of the terror, of suicid bombers, if you mean this with "conflict".


"and that it is hard to see that the Israeli Gov. sees fit to epmloy methods we Germans have learned by experience to detest."
What are you talking about??? To what German methods to you compare the Israeli methods.


"Like the collective punishment of whole families just because one of the family became a terrorist."
Can you imagine the desparation of Israel? How to live beside a nation full of misleaded children and adults full of hate? They destroy houses as a reaction of the killing of human beings. Human Beings! Not houses. You can critizise it but have an answer what to do against suicide bombers instead of. Something better.



"Or the building of a wall"
WALL? More than 90 % are a FENCE. What is wrong with you to call the whole thing a WALL? Just a mistake? You are always so well informed. How could it happen that you fail so much in this point?


"separating people and country."
How can you compare this fence to prevent terror with the wall in Germany?! Unbelievable!


"Here we have learned lessons that make us opposing these methods."
Again. This fence should stop the terror and it will. Where is the connection to (or with) the German wall?

"However: I can find no sympathy with terrorist at all."

Then please think about your words before you comment here. A wall is a wall and a fence is a fence. A fence is not a wall like you wrote.

@sock puppet
"Due to the fact the allies made sure to rebuild Germany as quickly as possible to forclose the problems that started WW2 and to contain the Soviet Union"

the "allies" were just watching! Who rebuilt germany was my "omi" and "Mami,Papi" ! Thank you mami, papi, omi.........;)

@Gabi:
I am deeply sad about the division between our countries and I hope we here on this weblog can help to stay in friendship together.

Friendship doesn't mean obedience, don't you think, Gabi?


@Chomskybot
The only one who has claimed that friendship means obedience is you.

Friendship means friendship.

And sometimes friendship means that one has to lead and the other has to follow BECAUSE they share the same opinion.

Germany never obeyed. That is Schröder-Nonsense. And yours.

What did Ronald Reagan actually for the reunion? "Open this wall" is nothing like "Akrakadabra"...

Der erste Kommentar wurde offensichtlich verfasst von einem der Macher von www.konservativ.de: Vielleicht versucht man, unter den Deutschsprachigen unter den Besuchern dieses Blogs Sympathisanten zu gewinnen.

Dazu von meiner Seite: Die obige Website enthält in der Tat für Konservative interessante Informationen, z.T. gut gemachte Analysen, in meinen Augen auch eine Fülle richtiger Auffassungen: Aber wann immer ich diese Seite besuche, habe ich gewisse Beklemmungen, man könnte auch sagen, einen ausgewachsenen Brechreiz: Da rechtfertigt z.B. ein gewisser Mag. R.-J. Eibicht, ein Mann mit "Vergangenheit", GWB gegen seine linken Gegner -der Mann hat auch eine Homepage (www.eibicht.de), da rechtfertigt er dann Martin Hohmann.
Auch andere Leute -wie der Auschwitz nur auf Latein leugnende Prof. Hepp- sehr hellbrauner Couleur verbreiten sich dort und der olle Otto von Habsburg kommt auf dieser Website auch zu Wort.

Die obige Webpage, die ich nicht durchgehend verurteile, manchmal sogar schätze, steht für das Dilemma des Deutschen Konservatismus; als Gegner der 68er hätten wir ihn bitter nötig, aber mit seiner z.T. antisemitischen, z.T. rückwärtsgewandten Borniertheit ekelt er mich auch an.

Ein Dt. Konservatismus, der nicht das bittere Fehlen dt.-jüdischer Wirtschafts-, Staats- und Bildungsbürger beklagt, sondern diese Lücke mal eben locker mit den Eibichts dieser Welt ausfüllt, ist kein Konservatismus, sondern bloß Feigenblatt einer Mobilisierungsideologie, des Faschismus, der mit Konservatismus nichts, mit Stalinismus und Berliner Mauer aber eine ganze Menge gemein hat.

Ich will niemanden abhalten, die Seite zu besuchen, auch David will ich nicht auffordern, den Link zu löschen, aber wenn jemand die Seite betritt, dann besser nicht mit vollem Magen.

Nicht der erste, sondern der "Gerhard Schröder,1985-Kommentar" war gemeint. Sorry.

Hallo Ralph,

Denkst du, dass so etwas wie die Ideen von Bush in den naechsten Jahren auch in Deutschland an Boden gewinnen wird? Und wenn ja, unter der Flagge welcher Partei?
Und sag jetzt bitte nicht Berlusconi, diesen Versuch fand ich nicht sehr ueberzeugend, vorsichtig gesagt.

@chomskybot


Eine sehr schwierige Frage; ich bitte um Bedenkzeit: Wenn ich eine Antwort gefunden haben sollte, e-maile ich sie Dir.

@ Gabi: seems I have angered you deeply. In some way I am sorry for that, but still need to argue some points with you.

a) sympathy for Palestinians..... o.k. lets say we both don't know that. I can not back up my feelings about there not being a majority with stats and numbers. Among students there may be a naive majority, but not among the "grown up" people I know (and my social network is quite large her in Germany and decends from my own party-affiliation CSU to the FDP and Greens as well). Do you have any stats for your assumption?
b)you are right to reproach me for the use of the word "conflict". It is to weak and soft a word for what is happening. It is terror, plain and simple from the Palestinian side. And seldom, very seldom also from some mislead Israely side too (whether against elected leaders of their own gov. or against unarmed innocent Arabs praying in a mosque). Still one grows tired of it, even if your brain and conscience tells you, that it is wrong to get tired, because apathy against evil is evil in itself.
c)collective punishment is unjust and wrong, Gabi, fullstop. I am well aware, that some of the young suicide bombers have more or less been sent by their parents or other relatives and that hate breeds deep in fanatic families. But a collective punishment tastes of "Willkür", not rule of the law, of revenge and not of justice. Besides that there seems to be no effect of it to help preventing more terrorist acts: if you leave the path of righteousness, what than is left to fight for? The end does not always sanction the means. No, Gabi, here I stand fast: this destruction of houses of whole families if just one member of the family commited a terrorist act is wrong, even if their is only one among the family who did not support the murderous deed. If you can proof that the family was freely and willingly supportive to the murderer: drag them to court, sentence them, confiscate the property. But not that way. this is the way dictators of all ages tried to put fear in the heart of their opponents, from ancient time to Napoleon to Hitler, Stalin, Honecker. You don't want to be part of this line.
d)you are right to correct me about the fence-part. My knowledge is too limited to get into this with the required depth. Hence I take your word for it and obviously there are no mine-fields and "Selbstschussanlagen", therefore my analogy was bad. Sorry. We will see on the long run, if it does help to prevent suicide bombers and weapon smugling.You will alow me to remina sceptical for the moment, though, won't you?

@anonymous: yes, omi and opi and dady and momy did built up with their hands. But don't you forget the Marshal fund and other direct investments that made it possible (if you do, PATTO will come all down on you and telling you that we Germans even sucked those poor American dry for decades and did do nothing for our current -though rapidly declining - wealth). While German ideas and hard works made the built up possible, it would not have been so fast and good without the support of our friends from overseas (just you look at the delayed development in the French zone!)

@ uni: well my friend, even though you may not like it, but his tough stand and sending Pershings and other balistic misiles to Germany in his first 4 years made sure that the SU discovered it would get bankrupt in the arms race long before the US of A. That made it possible for Reagan in his second term to offer Gorbachev the hand and make reforms possible. And it was his former vice-president Bush who was the only major western head of state supporting the reunification, while Thatcher and Mitterand tried everything in their power to prevent it. Hence: REagan has done a lot. I did not like him at that time, but in all fairness and hindsight: that man was damn right!

Interessanterweise ist "New Labour" den amerikanischen Republikanern am ähnlichsten, was Wirtschafts-, Sozial- und Außenpolitik angeht. Die konservativen Parteien Europas haben längst kein Monopol mehr auf gute Ideen. Von den deutschen Sozialdemokraten erhoffe ich mir aber noch weniger als von der CDU. Wer gesehen hat, wie Wolfgang Schäuble vor Wim Wenders eingeknickt ist weiß, daß die CDU nicht mehr die ideelle Kraft hat, dem antiwestlichen Neonationalismus in Deutschland zu widerstehen.
Von der FDP möchte ich nicht reden: Als klassisch-liberale Partei sollte man von ihr erwarten, daß sie sich auf die Seite derer stellt, die totalitäre Kräfte weltweit bekämpfen. Statt dessen schweigt sie. Auch zur Zurückdrängung westlich-liberaler Vorstellungen innerhalb Deutschlands schweigt sie.
Grüne und PDS waren jeher Freunde von Diktatoren wie Castro und Arafat und fallen ganz aus.
Ich möchte Chomskybots Anregung aufgreifen und die Frage stellen: Was kann politisch getan werden, um Deutschland wieder zu einem westlichen Staat zu machen, und wie müsste eine Partei aussehen, die dies bewerkstelligen könnte?

@ ralph: Ich denke, dass letztlich nur ein, wie in den USA, auch religiös verankerter Konservativismus eine echte Chance hätte, den Boden für eine Bush-ähnlich Bewegung zu bereiten. Denn nur auf diesem Boden kann die nicht-konservative, faschistoide Tendenz der "Rechten" gestoppt werden und wahrem konservativen Denken frei Bahn gegeben werden. Auch politisch. Meine Partei (CSU) und die CDU müssen sich wieder auf diese Wurzeln besinnen. Aber nicht als Herz-Jesu-Sozialisten a la Seehofer.

It is totally out of context, but I just found that and think it is funny enough to post it hear for our English speaking friends. Maybe my way of saying "Thank you" is: learn another language (German) and live longer.... ;-)

Health Diagnosis
1. The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.
2. The Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.
3. The Chinese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.
4. The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.
5. The Germans drink a lot of beers and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.


CONCLUSION:
Eat and drink what you like.

Speaking English is apparently what kills you.

That it for today, Cheerio from Old Europe!

@pat


"religiös verankert ..."; ich würde ergänzen: A u c h religiös verankert; wichtig nur, dass religiös nicht synonym ist mit christlich, sondern alle tradierten, historisch gewachsenen und sozial bewährten Formen von Religion mit einbezieht: Wenn man G. Himmelfarb, I. Kristol und andere jüdisch-amerikanische Intellektuelle (sogenannte Neocons) liest, dann beeindruckt mich, dass sie den angeblich zwangsläufigen Gegensatz zwischen Juden- und Christentum überwunden haben, u.a indem sie in Religion als solcher folgendes sehen:

-eine gemeinschaft-stiftende Kraft, die das Individuum aus Neigung und Hoffnung und gefühlter Pflicht über seine Ego-Späre hinaus drängt

-eine Moral stiftende, stabilisierende Kraft

-eine zu ideologischer Bescheidenheit erziehende Instanz, nicht ein (kommunistisches, maoistisches ...) Himmelreich auf Erden errichten zu wollen

-eine über das judeo-christiche: "Siehe es war gut" vermittelte Welthaftigkeit, die dem Apokalyptischen der Mobilisierungsideologien (Endkampf/Das Letzte Gefecht) entgegenarbeitet

-eine Größe, die -wie bei A. Smith- den Erwerbsgeist mit Werten vermittelt wie "sympathy", aber auch mit einem gewissenhaften Arbeits-Ethos, mit Hoffnung, etwas zu "unternehmen", Selbstdisziplin, mit dem Wert von Buch (Bibel) und Bildung auch als Schlüssel zu wirtschaftlichem Erfolg etc.

-eine Grenze saatlicher Macht und Willkür

Wegen des letzten Punktes muss allerdings jede politische Richtung, auch ein neuer Konservatismus, sehr vorsichtig-affirmativ mit Religion umgehen, darum meine obige Ergänzung.

Simon: "Was kann politisch getan werden, um Deutschland wieder zu einem westlichen Staat zu machen, und wie müsste eine Partei aussehen, die dies bewerkstelligen könnte?"

Mein Lieblingspolitiker George W. würde wohl sagen: "It is hard work." Ein einfaches Rezept dafür wird es nicht geben.

Ich denke die Parteien sind sich mittlerweile so ähnlich, weil die Deutschen ein ausgeprägtes Harmoniebedürfnis haben.

Vielleicht wären mehr Bloggs eine gute Idee? Blogger sind in Deutschland noch weitgehend unbedeutend und damit ist der "Markt" noch nicht verteilt. Das bedarf aber Talente mit viel Zeit und Ausdauer.

Auswandern in die USA ist jedenfalls keine Alternative, wo die New York Times zur Ermordung des Präsidenten aufruft und die Republicaner von staatilichen Universitäten vertrieben werden:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/07/weekinreview/07murp.html
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15855

By the way, here's an article of ZEIT magazine about the islamic threat for Europe.


@pat

Perhpas true.

But.

1. Can't think of a clever response on that one.
2. What's the average life-exectancy of a Mexican?
3. What's the average life-exectancy of a Chinese? AND I cannot live without red wine, sorry.
4. And the Italians dress better than Americans. No, they dress better than everyone!
5. Und hiermit bin ich Eingedeutscht!

For me:

No Supersavers. It saves you nothing in the long-run.
Only South African red wine. French/Italian are way too expensive.
German beer, yes please.
American service, okay I'll tip for it.
Italian suites, only.
Japanese gadgets, who else produces them?

Pat, you are too timid in your inferences. What kills Americans is defending all the other bystanding freeloaders.

Chomskybot: "By the way, here's an article of ZEIT magazine about the islamic threat for Europe."

The same article in English:
The Moor's Last Laugh
Radical Islam finds a haven in Europe.
BY FOUAD AJAMI
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004879

@Chomskybot: We are worried about a president people pray for, and people praying for their president. That's why we favored Kerry although his agenda wasn't that different. It's the style. Concerning style, Kerry is the smaller evil.


You're one sick mutha! For sake of argument, let's say it is a real concern when people pray for the President. How is that an argument against Bush, since people prayed for every President in our history and people were praying for Kerry? Kerry, if you were watching, made a big show of his religious beliefs, indeed quoting his favorite verse from the Bible.

Your comment: "Kerry is the smaller evil." just reveals yourself as an anti-American bigot. You hate America. This hatred leads you into the deep wells of nincompoopery. Your choice of a name, Chomskybot proves that. Chomsky is a Hate America nutcase, whose work is dishonest and has been totally de-bunked. Just google 'anti-Chomsky reader'.

As to Kerry's style, he contradicted himself within minutes. In one debate, Kerry said Iraq was no threat and minutes later insisted that Saddam was a threat. After 2 years of campaigning for President, at the end, no one knew what Kerry intended to do in Iraq. Style? What about substance?

I was curious to see if anyone would mention the other anniversary. I'm not disappointed.

Why didn't we learn from the Nazi Age and WWII that Americans are always good and that we have to thank them forever? Apart from the fact that Germany actually was thankful, you cannot expect that this effect lasts forever, and we also learned some different lessons, which may now turn against you (surprise surprise!)

Germany was so thankful that after the war our forces were ambushed for 7 years in Germany. People threw things at American tanks as they passed for over a decade. Yes, how very thankful, I can see that. It's ok, I understand - if you're going to revise history in such a way that the German peolpe were mere victims, and not co-conspirators, then of course you have to say that Germany was thankful. I still have to say however that perhaps you have a collective learning disability, because you learned all the wrong lessons.

1) Style is a subjective interperetation, and suffers subjective failures. I have never prayed for Bush a single time, but still I support him - your interperetation can't explain me (or millions of other Americans). When your model fails to explain the world it is the model, not the world, which is at fault. Were your interperetation based on substance rather than style, you might have one that works; as it stands, you're doomed to be confounded by reality every time it fails to meet your predictions. Don't change a thing - I want to laugh each time it happens.

Unless your point had more to do with some aspect of religion? Of course, that makes a lot of sense since religion was such a major part of Hitler's reign. Well then, by all means let's have some nice atheist leadership. There've been lots of good ones - Chairman Mao, Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot - yes, atheism sure sounds promising.

2) It is unlikely that you have had the experience of bomb raids, totally destroyed cities, etc. either. I'll wager that these events were already history before you had a chance to experience them, although perhaps you, like myself, had the experience of air raid drills as a child. It is not about the trauma; what you mean to say is that it is about your trauma, or even your potential trauma. Other people's certain and definite trauma is unfortunate, but what can one do... right?

3) Did you also sympathze with Milosevic against the NATO invasion? How about the Somali warlords who attacked UN food relief convoys - did they have your sympathies also? I guess the Iraqi people had your sympathy too when their regime was executing them by the tens of thousands? Military power crushed Imperial Japan, held the USSR at bay, allowed South Korea to remain independant of North korea, freed Kuwait, and toppled the Taliban - just to name a few. Perhaps - just perhaps - "Distrust military power" is a tad too shallow to be practical.

There is only one lesson that you should have learned -

1) Distrust populism. Populism made Kristallnacht possible, not leaders, wars, or military power. Hitler did nothing that populist support did not enable him to do. The war derived from populism, not populism from the war. Military power was what ended it, not what created it. Germany's military power was a symptom, not a disease.

As once noted at Cum Grano Salis, instead of learning that evil must be fought you learned that fighting is evil. If your analysis is truly representative of a majority of Germans - and the view from this side of the pond suggests that it is - then stop breaking your arm patting yourself on the back. Your analysis is not yet complete, get back to it.


collective punishment is unjust and wrong,

It isn't punishment, it's deterrence. The only threat you have against someone who intends to die comitting their crime is one against those they leave behind. The threat is useless if it's never followed through. A better deterrant would be if Palestinians did not lionize terrorists and raise children who valued death above statehood, but that is not within Israel's control.


@Gabi - you're forever welcome.

@Doug:
Germany was so thankful that after the war our forces were ambushed for 7 years in Germany. People threw things at American tanks as they passed for over a decade. Yes, how very thankful, I can see that.

Source for this? When it happened, I think it wasn't widespread, unless I am victim of a huge fascist conspiracy in my history lessons.
But think of the German appreciation for John F. Kennedy e.g.

Did you also sympathze with Milosevic against the NATO invasion?

No.

Distrust populism. Populism made Kristallnacht possible, not leaders, wars, or military power. Hitler did nothing that populist support did not enable him to do. The war derived from populism, not populism from the war. Military power was what ended it, not what created it. Germany's military power was a symptom, not a disease.

Well, seems like you have read your (debatable) Daniel Jonah Goldhagen well.
Do you know that the National Socialists had their origin among disappointed WWI veterans that wanted to bring back Germany military power and glory? Militarization of politics is always dangerous. Prussian Militarism actually turned out to be disastrous in WWI.

It isn't punishment, it's deterrence. The only threat you have against someone who intends to die comitting their crime is one against those they leave behind. The threat is useless if it's never followed through.

When you think that killing the families of suicide bombers is legitimate, you have learned a fine lesson of Orwellian Double-Think. Sorry.


Chomskybot: "We are worried about a president people pray for, and people praying for their president"

JF Kerry was using the church all the time for his campain, so we are very happy that he lost. George W. can not do the same, because the MSM would eat him alive. (There exist an study that president Clinten used the word God much more often in his speeches then president Bush, but I can't find it now.)

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/008152.php
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/008398.php#008398
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/008216.php#008216
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/004582.php#004582

Kerry is a communist sympathizer, appeaser and to millions of Americans traitor.

Wrong man, wrong ideology, wrong century.

"It isn't punishment, it's deterrence. The only threat you have against someone who intends to die comitting their crime is one against those they leave behind. The threat is useless if it's never followed through." Doug wrote.

"When you think that killing the families of suicide bombers is legitimate, you have learned a fine lesson of Orwellian Double-Think. Sorry." Chmoskybot answered.

We were talking about the reaction to destroy HOUSES after the killing of people. Don't change the facts. Don't lie, Chmoskybot.

Minor but probably significant point of order here, please.

The one and ONLY reason Israel destroys the homes of Palestinian homicide bombers to to deter OTHER homicide bombings.

Surviving families are paid $25,000 per murderer. That's a lot of money over there. Remove there houses i.e., their incentive to sacrifice a child or two for a nicer house then the homicide bomber pool dries up.

That's already happening. Crazed Palestinian families are beginning to realize there's no financial gain from turning a surplus child into a killing machine.

As for the fence/wall. It's both, and it works. It destroyed the intefada and forced the Palestinians to turn on themselves. Hence the chaos, the very chaos that "correct thinking" and enlightened Europe has fostered, funded and excused.

Palestinians are like a disease that eats itself; the only cure will be a radically different view of themselves, their ideology, their leaders, their roles in the conflict and their neighbors. And that won't take hold until their enablers -- the arrogant and ignorant European left -- finally gets the message that they've made an historic mistake.

Fifteen years after the fall of the wall, Europe is a scary place. The unilateralist European "Blood for Chocolate" War, launched in defiance of the UN rages unabated in Ivory Coast. Meanwhile, the Europeans have carried divisiveness to a new extreme in a matter of great import on both sides of the Atlantic. They have turned their back on multilateralism, broken off negotiations with the Japanese and Americans, and unilaterally decided to monopolize development of humanity's best hope for a future of clean energy. Leaving a press conference, French President Chirac was heard to mutter, "Screw you guys, I'm going home!"

Ausschnitte aus einem Artikel in der FAZ Europas Lebenslüge:

Darum helfen hier die Abwiegelungen nicht mehr, man habe es unter der Million niederländischer Muslime nur mit fünf Prozent potentiellen Gewalttätern zu tun. Das sind fünfzigtausend offenbar gewaltbereite Nachbarn, gut eingebettet und geschützt durch Ehrenkodex und Sippentreue - ein Albtraum für Geheimdienste und Sicherheitskräfte, die auch noch bekennen mußten, daß bei der Überwachung der islamistischen Zelle des Van-Gogh-Mörders den Straftätern geheime Polizeiakten von einem Verbindungsmann in den Briefkasten geworfen wurden.

Angesichts solcher Machtlosigkeit im Land der ganz besonderen Toleranz nimmt die grimmige Wut nicht wunder, mit der plötzlich linke Intellektuelle, aber auch der liberale Fraktionsvorsitzende Jozias van Aartsen die Gefahr beschreiben: Man habe seit 1940 keinem ähnlich gefährlichen Feind des Zusammenlebens mehr gegenübergestanden. Der französische Innenminister und Präsidentschaftsanwärter Sarkozy nimmt den Ball auf, wenn er nun lauthals Hunderte rechtsfreie Räume inmitten des laizistischen Staates beklagt - Orte, an denen nicht der Code civil, sondern die Scharia gilt. Sarkozy fordert als erste Maßnahme eine konsequent französische Mullah-Ausbildung, die ihre Absolventen auf Respekt vor dem Rechtsstaat trimmt.

Auf welches Boot auch sollten selbst Rassisten oder Neofaschisten diese Feinde der offenen Gesellschaft wohl aussetzen, wenn die radikalste Minderheit als europäische Mitbürger bereits hier geboren wurde? Es geht eben um keine Bedrohung von außen, sondern um das finstere Herz des westlichen Zusammenlebens.

Die Gewalttaten in Holland müssen den politischen Eliten in ganz Europa klarmachen, daß gerade die niederländische Laxheit gegenüber offensichtlichen Gesetzesverstößen, die Gewohnheit rechtsfreier Räume inmitten des friedlichen Multikulturalismus, die Fundamentalisten besonders stark machten. Darum lodern nun Moscheen in Europas duldsamstem Land. Man muß noch einmal an den Amsterdamer Soziologen Paul Scheffer erinnern, der am Dienstag in dieser Zeitung die Ohnmacht gegenüber der Intoleranz als größten Feind jeder möglichen Toleranz ausmachte. Das sind Worte von einem Vordenker der Sozialdemokratie, die noch vor ein paar Jahren tabu gewesen wären. [..]

Daß sich in dieser Manier das gesamte europäische Parteienspektrum nach rechts verschieben könnte, daß darum in Holland jetzt gerade Sozialdemokraten mehr Geheimdienst und Polizei fordern, zeigt die Stärke der Erschütterung überdeutlich. Daß aber noch längst nicht alle das Menetekel zu deuten wissen, zeigt die so naive wie bezeichnende Einlassung des Regisseurs Volker Schlöndorff zum Mord an van Gogh: Er wundere sich, daß nicht Michael Moore von einem christlich-fundamentalistischen Waffennarr in Amerika erschossen wurde. Aber Moore wurde von keinem politischen Widersacher ein Haar gekrümmt. Sein holländischer Kollege aber, Garant eines vielstimmigen und bunten Europas, ist tot.

Text: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, 11.11.2004, Nr. 264 / Seite 35

Volker Schlöndorff pupst mal wieder - man möge doch endlich aufhören, den Blödsinn solcher Leute zu verbreiten. Wer will das hören?!

Danke für den Artikel, niom.

Let me get back to the subject at hand and that is the fall of the Berlin Wall and the absence of the Soviet threat to Western Europe. I would only say,peripherally, to answer some of the obtuse political dialogue written above, that if you don't have an adequate defense establishment, your country comes perilously close to becoming irrelevant in world affairs. Now I would like to thank those Germans alive today for their assistance during the Cold War. For those of you young enough not to remember that time, Germany was an armed camp. Military convoys constantly ran up and down the Autobahn and country roads. Army and Air Force bases dotted the landscape. Portable bridges were ready to deploy in case the main bridges were taken out. American, British, French and German troops were waiting for the enemy to drive out of the Fulda Gap and into the heart of Germany. The German people put up with this because they believed in freedom and the thought that one day their country would be reunited. Well, it happened. Sooner than anyone would have dared to think. So for now, thank you to all the Germans who helped in what I believe was a right and noble cause. We won and we ought to be proud of ourselves.

@Chomskybot
you said
Intermixture of politics and religion is something I am strictly opposed to.

I agree..
Let us look at Germany.

1. Church taxes? Government tax money supporting CHURCHES? Isn
t THAT a mixture of politics and religion? Hell of a lot more "MIXTURE" than someone praying for their leader.

2. Religious instruction in the public school system in Germany? Isn
t that much more of a "mixture" than the US, where people scream if you so much as PRAY in school.

3. No shopping on Sundays in Germany? Yes the unions also play a part in this but the church also lobbies hard against it.. Now why can we in hyper religious USA shop on Sundays? Oh I forgot we are religious but only when we are not busy being capitalists.

4. The title of the opposition party CHRISTIAN democratic union. I could imagine your reaction if the USA republicans had something with Christian in your name.

5. The opposition of Turkey into the EU is based by many that the EU is a "Christian
" club ..

Contradictions abound, maybe you could work on this "mixture" in Germany first, since you have more influence there. Then worry about somebody in the US praying for the president.

Chomskybot; "But I don't want to live in a country where people pray for their leader, be it Iran or USA. Intermixture of politics and religion is something I am strictly opposed to." You probably live in such a country now. I am sure that there are Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. in Germany praying that their leadership has a better grasp of humanity's spirit & Love of God, than you! The communists tried to stop religion/belief in God/whatever you term it. It didn't work then, it's not working now. Get over it. People pray in the privacies of their homes all over the world, and it's nothing you can stop, and governments have nothing to do with it! When we pray for our President, we pray for his safety, his wisdom, and his continued success in beating back Islamo-facism!

What a moron!

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