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» A little German hypocrisy. from Welcome to Castle Argghhh! The Home Of One Of Jonah's Military Guys.
From David's MedienKritik comes this little gem. Gee, one of Germany's largest unions, whose president called on all it's members to protest against the US military was Warmongers... is concerned that the departure of the Warmongers might cost members ... [Read More]

» Germany frets from Random Nuclear Strikes
With the evil capitalist warmongering Americans leaving, who will support their socialist lifestyle? Pretty amusing, actually. They hate us, but love our money. I wonder if the people who thought Schroder’s anti-American policies were so wonderfu... [Read More]

» Can't Have It All from Sandesk
Poor Germany. First we took away one of their sources of money when we ousted Saddam Hussein. Now we're taking another source by withdrawing American troops from Germany. You'd think they could have seen that coming.... [Read More]

» Occupation of Germany from King of Fools
David's Medienkritik offers a German perspective on the proposed troop withdrawals. And I love the Cox & Forkum cartoon they posted.... [Read More]

» German Hypocrisy from The Conjecturer
The Germans had this habit of describing our men and women in uniform as warmongers, imperial stormtroopers, etc. Why, then, do they now complain and moan about those very same "evil" people leaving their country? It's fairly simple, and telling:... [Read More]

» But What About My Job, Mr. Warmonger, Sir?… (Davids Medienkritik) from Dummocrats.com
But What About My Job, Mr. Warmonger, Sir?… (Davids Medienkritik) [Read More]

» Germans upset over US troop redeployment from poliBlarg!
As noted on David's Medienkritik, the leaders of ver.di, a major German workers' union, are upset at the proposed pullout of US troops stationed in Germany. This comes amid fervent anti-American rhetoric from the same group. [Read More]

» Weasels-At-Arms from Feste...a foolsblog
Allen Forkum links this tidbit: "I regret this very much," German Defense Minister Peter Struck told reporters during a visit to troops in northern Germany. Yeah I bet you do. However, it takes a unionist to make a proper... [Read More]

» Germany Craps Their Pants Over US Pullout from DiggersRealm : Digger Speaks
Davids Medienkritik has a nice piece on the ver.di, Germany’s largest service-sector union and the largest independent, individual trade union in the world crapping their pants over the US redistribution of military forces. Ver.di’s chairman, Frank... [Read More]

» Germany Craps Their Pants Over US Pullout from DiggersRealm : Digger Speaks
Davids Medienkritik has a nice piece on the ver.di, Germany’s largest service-sector union and the largest independent, individual trade union in the world crapping their pants over the US redistribution of military forces. Ver.di’s chairman, Frank... [Read More]

» Germany Craps Their Pants Over US Pullout from DiggersRealm : Digger Speaks
Davids Medienkritik has a nice piece on the ver.di, Germany’s largest service-sector union and the largest independent, individual trade union in the world crapping their pants over the US redistribution of military forces. Ver.di’s chairman, Frank... [Read More]

» Should we go or should we stay? from QandO
German blogger David Kaspar notes that ver.di, Germany's largest service-sector union is upset at the idea that US troops will go home from Germany, because it will cause many of their members to lose their jobs. He points to a... [Read More]

» Please don't go American imperialist warmongering troops from JohnHays.net
Gosh, now Germany doesn't want our troops to leave even after many Germans concluded America and its president were more dangerous to the world than Saddam Hussein. But.....but.....but.....they looooove the money. The following is an excerpt of a po... [Read More]

» Germans upset over US troop redeployment from Neutiquam erro...
As noted on David's Medienkritik, the leaders of ver.di, a major German workers' union, are upset at the proposed pullout of US troops stationed in Germany. This comes amid fervent anti-American rhetoric from the same group. [Read More]

Comments

Hey, I've a great idea. ver.di should designate a day (call it Tag Y perhaps) for Germans to get out and demonstrate in their millions. A day to show how much Germans love Uncle Sam and admire George Bush. Get Schroeder and the rest of the German government out walking, not excluding Scharping and whatshername (the ex-justice minister). All talking about how great the US is and what a great guy Bush has been.

Who knows, might work, eh? Otherwise they will move the bases to Poland. And the kind of salaries they pay in Germany would go a loooonnnnggg way in Poland....

BTW, the only possible explanation for Mr. Bsirske’s slightly contradictory position? You Yankees are imperialst, hegenomic swine. But be love you anyway! You think? !!!!

Frank Bsirske will wage a 'trade union' war against the USA for compensation ( maybe against the plan of withdrawn , who known , and he wants GIs stay there for ever) .
Don't be a warmonger, M. Bsirske !
President G.W Bush is so kind , he plans to withdraw during next 10 years . If I were him , there would be a immediate and total withdraw . The regional economy would suffer for a while.

Wenn man versucht den Sachverhalt in etwas neutralerer Sprache zu beleuchten, könnte man natürlich auch sagen, dass ver.di bei aller antiamerikanischen Rhetorik insbesondere ihres Vorsitzenden zumindest den Eindruck aufrechterhalten muss, die Interessen ihrer Mitglieder zu vertreten, selbst wenn diese bei einem politisch unerwünschten Arbeitgeber, in diesem Falle den US-Streitkräften, beschäftigt sind. Das ist doch an sich ein durchaus löblicher Pragmatismus, auch wenn es natürlich wichtig ist auf die 'gewerkschaftliche Doppelmoral' hinzuweisen.

Im Übrigen wendet sich ver.di in dem zitierten Papier nicht gegen den Truppenabzug an sich, sondern ruft zur Schaffung anderer Beschäftigungsmöglichkeiten auf, ein Ansinnen, das in Anbetracht der chronischen Strukturschwäche mancher betroffenen Region durchaus verständlich ist (auch wenn wohl kaum zu erwarten ist, dass ver.di irgend etwas Sinnvolles zur Lösung dieser Probleme beiträgt).

But why? We're hegenomist Nazi schweinhunds. Who in their right mind would want us around? Apart for defense that is. Do you see any threats to Germany these days?

@Schulz

" Übrigen wendet sich ver.di in dem zitierten Papier nicht gegen den Truppenabzug an sich, sondern ruft zur Schaffung anderer Beschäftigungsmöglichkeiten auf, ein Ansinnen, das in Anbetracht der chronischen Strukturschwäche mancher betroffenen Region durchaus verständlich ist (auch wenn wohl kaum zu erwarten ist, dass ver.di irgend etwas Sinnvolles zur Lösung dieser Probleme beiträgt)."

Meinst du dass die alte Trainingsgelaende und Kasserne zum Al Queda Trainingsplaetze umgewandet werden? Das wird sinnvoll, Nicht?

I suppose it's one of the constants of the univers that some crack-head (I don't know how to translate that one) Union boss will bloviate about International Affairs and anything else... I suppose they get kind of bored when they aren't extorting consumers out of their hard-earned money, and governments in general.

Schultz -
was he doing his union comrades a favor when we was commenting on the actions of the president of a nation 6000 km away? That hardlt seems pragmatic.

Niko,

die Crux ist nur, dass Leute ohne Beschäftigung auch üblicherweise keine zahlenden Gewerkschaftsmitglieder mehr sind. Insofern hat ver.di natürlich ein gewisses Interesse ihre Mitglieder in Beschäftigung zu halten.

Ansonsten denke ich, das die antiamerikanische Haltung von Bsirske und Co durchaus tiefer innerer Überzeugung entspringt und weniger mit profanen Motiven wie der Mehrung der Mitgliederzahl zu tun hat. Wer sich 'friedenspolitisch' engagieren möchte tut das wohl am ehesten in seiner örtlichen 'Friedensinitiative' oder vergleichbaren überregionalen Organisationen und kaum durch Beitritt zu einer Gewerkschaft. Das dürfte wohl auch den meisten Gewerkschaftsfunktionären klar sein. Insofern scheint mir die Motivation eher ideologisch zu sein, was die Sache natürlich keinesfalls besser macht. Sorry, falls das in meinem Beitrag nicht richtig rüber kam.

George M.,

sehr witzig ...

Joe N.,

what I meant to be pragmatic was
dass ver.di [...] zumindest den Eindruck aufrechterhalten muss, die Interessen ihrer Mitglieder zu vertreten
not Bsirske's comments on US policy. In so far I will answer your question with 'No' and agree with your conclusion.

Well, as an American tax payer, it isn't my duty to provide jobs for German citizens. Regardless if our contries were feeling soft and warm towards each other or not. There is no need for our troops to remain in Germany, and defending Germany from anyone or anything isn't our job either.

Besides, they apparently don't like us. So we are doing what most Germans probably want. So that's a good thing, IMO. Why should Germans have a bunch of people on their soil that they hate? These unions are being very selfish, and not giving a damn about their fellow countrymen. Disgraceful.

It's very strange and contradictory, lost one. I think they're hitting out at us because we're not what they think we should be. They see the troop withdrawal in personal terms, I think. Which is partly appropriate. Part of it is anger and betrayal.

But only part. The question I ask about the redeployment is If we had to choose to deploy 100,000 troops today, would we choose to do so in Germany? . The answer is clearly no, because Germany is under no threat whatsoever, is increasingly hostile, and there is nothing which we can do in Germany which cannot be done cheaper in the US or Poland (for example). So why are US troops still in Germany? Tradition. Inertia.

We face a similar problem in South Korea. The 40,000 US troops in South Korea are symbolic. The represent a US committment to South Korea's defense. They are also hostages in a way. Not to the South Koreans. Hostages to the North. They are in range of NK artillery and nuclear bombs. If the US withdrew our troops from South Korea it would give us much more freedom. We could ignore the area or we could do something else (like What Israel did to Hussein's Nuclear Reactor, for example).

Europe is nuts. Freaking insane. Orwell himself couldn't have thought this one up. I can't believe these people are our "allies." They need massive infusions of psychotropic drugs just to reach the state of "borderline-normal."

Cox and Forkum - as usual - hit the nail on the head:

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/OldWarNewWar-X.gif

what a joke

if it wasn´t for the trade unions 90 to 95 % of all demonstrations (all anti-West/Capitalism/etc, etc) of the last 35 years would not have taken place or would have had a turnout of about 100 persons.

I'm all for socialism, as a primary step towards communism. And trade unions are a necesary step for both.

The problem ain't trade unions, guilds, humanitarian values, or any such movement or method. This is a German Problem.

It's difficult for the present generation of Germans (or West Europeans) to understand just how much their living-standard is supported by US tax-payers. The US government injects a huge (huge) amount of capital into the German government's tax chest -- and that allows Germans to enjoy such things as plentiful (and inexpensive) healthcare, daycare, unemployment assistance, never mind clean streets and plentiful mass transit.

Imagine a Western Europe if the US had turned its back; That's a recipe for South American style living-standards. Western Europeans are lucky, not thrifty nor industrious.

rob@egoz.org

America needs to commit to Iraq just as they did to Germany after WWII. Spend a couple decades rebuilding/guarding/pacifying and just when they start to hate us again, pull out the troops.

Germany was a resounding success, proud to have done it, glad to see it is working out for you, but we got other matters to attend to. Tell you what Germany, pay a little bit of the last 40 years back by lending a hand in the rehabilitation of the rest of the world.

Schultz - I got your point exactly. The question is, was his pandering his 'flock' about Bush being a warmonger a pragmatic action? I'd guess not.

@rob

"US government injects a huge (huge) amount of capital into the German government's tax chest "

Really? How much? I think that this is a mis-perception amongst Americans ( being one ). I support the troop pull-out, but I don't think that it will have the disasterous schadenfreude results that many of us want.

Regarding health-care. I couldn't agree with you more. America devleops (most) of the worlds drugs, the biotech/Pharm industry is the largest in the world. Futhermore, for companies to recoop their investment, they charge a lot of money for the drugs. There is no price control in the states as you have in Europe. So, basically, Europe is transfering the true cost of development to the American health care payer causing the US to spend the most on per-capita basis.

It's funny really, cause the Euros complain about Steel tarrifs, although they were harldy hit by them, but engauge in other "un-fair" practices like price-fixing on drug products. "but it's unfair to profit from health-care products." That philosophy works well, so long as another country, the USA, foots the bill. I don't know why Bush doesn't submit this issue to the WTO and throw it back into Chirac and Schröder's face!

Even more ironic than the anti-U.S. military posturing of German socialists is the juxtaposition between:

End the occupation of Iraq, Now!

and,

After 60 years, Don't End the Occupation of Germany, just yet... We need the jobs!

I love Germany, and spent 6 years stationed there, in the 80's and early 90's, and I am still in touch with several German friends, but this pullout does not sadden me.

I remember the massive Easter marches of the 80's, the "Americans Go Home" signs, the violence, and the terrorist attacks of the Stasi-funded leftwing Red Army Faction on U.S. facilities. At the time, the Russians were still massed on the inner German border. I thought to myself then, never has a people fought so hard, against its protectors. At the time, it made me laugh in a cynical way, and I wrote the protests off as the voice of a rather uninformed minority.

However, it has become clear to me in the last year or two that at least a simple majority of Germans (or a supermajority of simple Germans) don't really like us ugly Americans very much, based on the electoral success granted to Mr. Schroeder rewarding him for his America & Bush-bashing campaign in the last general election.

What I hear now, by way of protests, follows two distinct themes.

The first theme is from welfare statists – “You can take your warmongering racist hegemon death machine home, but leave us the $8 - $10 billion you pump directly into our economy.

The second theme is from the doves, the inattentive and inadvertent pacifists by default who are still asleep to the Islamacist threat, and the anti-American, anti-capitalist hard left. Those people expect to have peace, and they want to have it without being required to pay for it, or maybe at worst, by paying for diplomats to go stay in expensive hotels, eat expensive dinners, and talk until the Islamacists agree to drop their weapons and accept some baksheesh, or Danegeld as certain Anglicists have called it.

The only reason these positions are possible, is because Uncle Sam has been picking up the tab for Western European security for a long time now. In fact, we’ve taken so much responsibility for ensuring peace in Europe and elsewhere, that a majority of the population in Western Europe seems to have forgotten what it takes to preserve peace and a semblance of freedom. The payment for peace is rendered in money and blood, or paraphrasing Orwell, the left and pacifists can dream dovish dreams and sleep in peace at night, because there are hard American (and British and coalition forces) men standing watch over them in the dark, willing to do ruthless things to allow them the luxury of pacifist fantasies.

In the end, this pullout is a potential cure for Germany’s holiday from reality. Just like any extended trip to a spa, there will be substantial costs, some sore muscles, and maybe a realization that maybe the national health isn’t everything that it should be. The end result, if Germany accepts reality and understands what it has to do to preserve its security, will be a healthier Germany with a stronger defense infrastructure. If not, Deutschland can continue to let its military and security apparatus atrophy, and hope others pick up the slack.

But don’t worry – just because we’re pulling the troops out, doesn’t mean that Germany can’t still be a free rider, enjoying the security and stability the U.S. endeavors to provide. Thanks to American efforts in the Middle East, South Asia, and with allies around the world, perhaps the Islamofascists won’t ever pose a direct threat to Germany, and German labor leaders, bitter about the America pullout and the loss of jobs, can console themselves that they never really did like Americans very much anyhow, especially not that insane Texas cowboy hegemon who got rid of a top German client in Iraq. And this may prove enough for those Germans who have always wanted to get the gauche Americans out of Europe. If you have read Kafka, it seems reasonable to think that a well-nursed hatred is probably just as sustaining to certain type of person, as a fast friend of many years would be.


Joe N.,

I already answered that and agrred with you, didn't I? Btw it is Schulz without 't'.

We've tried 'nation building' in Germany for quite nearly 60 years. It's time to give up on a failed program. Bring the troops home!

I'm all for socialism, as a primary step towards communism. And trade unions are a necesary step for both.

are you kidding me, dude? 80 years of communism around the world hasn't proven that it's a murderous form of political organization? How many more 100s of millions have to die before you'll realize what communism amounts to.

Nasrudin said:

"Oh, People! Do you want freedom without sacrifice; progress without pain; wealth without effort?"

"Yes, yes", shouted the people.

"Excellent", said Nasrudin, "I will inform you immediately if I ever find such a thing is actually possible".

Paraphrase of a story by Idries Shah

It's time to end the welfare state, which only fosters dependency and weakness. Germans are weak, soft, and entirely dependent upon the U.S. for defense.

Bush could really help the Germans now by pulling all of the troops out, voiding NATO (while establishing a bi-lateral alliance with the Brits, who still have balls) and tell the Euro-twits they're on their own.

The transformation will be painful, but in ten years time, amazing. They'll have to reform their own social-welfare system to fund a credible military, and in so doing, two things will result - a more entreprenuerial, work-friendly economy, and a more mature, realistic and robust foreign and defense policy toward real threats.

THEN we can re-establish an alliance with a peer nation, one that views the world and its problems realisticly, one that isn't a free-rider on the American Department of Defense.

Save Europe - cut the dependency - end NATO - bring the troops home NOW!


"The problem with a socialist economy is that only a capitalist economy can make enough money to pay for it." --Unknown

Thank you for your great blog.

This immature love/hate attitude of the world towards America is the main reason, I think, the Olympic Games are not well attended. I am sure many people on the continent do not hate us, but the media and the politicians and the activists do. Why should we pay money to visit people who will spit in our face? They hate the US but love our open wallets.

There have been arguments on both sides of this issue in the U.S. media lately. The people in favor of the changes tend to be military people and technocrats with expertise in military strategy. Those who want to maintain the status quo have invariably been people who have something to lose from the change that has nothing to do with actual merits of the case. For example, the opponent of the change on the opinion page of the Washington Post was a high official in the German Marshall Fund. Their arguments usually amount to hand waving about how we would be alienating our allies in the war on terror, weakening the system of international alliances at a critical moment, etc., etc. Never do any of them mention the fact that our "dear allies" in old Europe have been wallowing in an orgy of America bashing for the last ten years. The political motivation for their arguments is obvious in every case. Kerry has once again revealed what a fine Commander in Chief he would make by immediately politicizing the issue. He really seems to believe that, if only he is elected President, relations between old Europe and the US will become a mutual love fest. Of course, that's to be expected from the man who, in 1971, scornfully dismissed any suggestion that a Communist victory in Vietnam and Cambodia might result in anything as unpalatable as the mass murder of two million people, re-education camps, and the deaths of tens of thousands more in leaky boats as they attempted to flee the slaughter. Someone really needs to prepare a brief for him on European media coverage of the US during the Clinton Administration, before Bush conveniently presented himself as a fig leaf for the America bashers. The hatemongering was, if anything, worse then than it is now. His fond hopes of a new golden age in trans-Atlantic relations are a pipe dream. The Iraq War showed that the US can no longer afford to maintain force levels in Europe and Asia that were appropriate for a cold war that ended more than 10 years ago. One can only hope that the ultimate decision won't be left to political hacks and union bosses.

These folks show you why socialists have no imagination. In virtually every case in the US, a closed military base was a boon to the local economy. Please look at this one in my neck of the woods, http://www.glenview.il.us/glen/abouttheglen/default.asp

It was a naval air atation, now it has an amazing golf course, hundred of families and thriving shopping. The locality was never able to tax the land before and now can at a high rate.

Hell, Puerto Rico thinks the closing of Roosevelt Roads is a net positive. These bases already have sewer and water. It is a huge economic opportunity if they only have the imagination.

I'm in favor of complete withdrawal of US troops and protection from Germnay. One thing troubles me however, and that is the possibility that Germany will collapse under the cost of its socialist programs and another dictator will arise who will blame the country's problems on some external entity (perhaps the US?) and we will be right back where we were in the 1930s. After the first two world wars, I believe there was some determination never to let Germany become a threat to peace again...which meant not to let Germany become a military power. I am 3/4 ethnic German myself, but I must say there appears to be something in the makeup of the German people that tends toward socialism, and that collectivist instinct can, I think, too easily tend towards nationalism. So while I prefer that we in the US withdraw our military back inside our borders and stop footing the bill for defending democracy and peace around the world (while being accused of being imperialists for our trouble), I'm not sure it wouldn't end up costing us more in the long run if we have to re-fight the last world war again.

Were Germans to stop funding French gentlemen farmers to the extent they do, it would go a long way to making up for the loss of revenue from the American troop redeployment. But then, I suppose I engage in some kind of fantasy.

So Frank Bsirske runs a union. How does that make him an expert worth listening when he bloviates about foreign afairs? He's wasting his members money when he skips union affairs to focus on the foreign policy of another nation. That he has an audience is a reminder that half of all people are of below-average intellegence. Even Germans.

Maybe American foreign affairs are just more fun that German foreign affairs. I'm not sure; I've never had an affair with a foreign American.

". . . an order which follows its imperial gusto and understanding of its own interests.”

What an idiot. A country shouldn't follow its own interests? He's right about the imperal part, though; sad to say, America is a terrible administrator. Almost every country we've conquered in the last 150 years got rid of our rule in just a few years.

If a foreign nation had army bases here in America, I'd be glad to see them leave. It's bad enough that we have to put up with the UN in New York. Of course, they're 4,000 kilometers away from me, so there isn't much personal impact on me, but still. . .


@MarkJ

"but I must say there appears to be something in the makeup of the German people that tends toward socialism, and that collectivist instinct can, I think, too easily tend towards nationalism."

Interesting point. I'm not sure if it's "German" but I firmly believe that Socialism lends itself to be usurped by Nationalist tendancies.

FA Hayek, Nobel Prize winner suggested the same in his famous book : The Road to Serfdom. He said that the socialists had created an infrastructure of state-dependancy whose aparatus was available for the taking by the despot Hitler. As an Austrian and an Aglophile, I found his observations to be true today and very insightful. I would really recommend reading it!

FWIW, the arguments about the US pulling back and therefore forcing our "allies" to pull their own weight to the benefit of all date all the way back to 1986.

Check out "How NATO Weakens the West" by Melvyn Krauss of the Hoover Institution.

--"but I must say there appears to be something in the makeup of the German people that tends toward socialism, and that collectivist instinct can, I think, too easily tend towards nationalism."--

I came to the conclusion a couple of years ago that it's "mutated monarchy."

Ruled by the unelected 1 or many as the brusselsprouts, still the same.

Kings and serfs, please take care of me.

It's the only way they understand.

Understood, Schulz

Ray & David

Thanks for the hat tip!

Sandy P.: "Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." George Bernard Shaw

I came to the same conclusion as you. Germans have a deeply-rooted etatism, a large part of the population wants things to be regulated by the state here. The sclerotic octopus of the German welfare state, the full insurance mentality and the fetish of overregularisation (fish must be sold in the EU under their Latin names; the amount of basins in kindergartens; etc.) the still often-found absence of free markets in my opinion produces not only a suboptimal performance climate but also a large class of bureaucrats. These people tend to protect and augment their status and their number,. which leads to intransparency which in the end is a large threat to democracy per se. German politicians don't seem to trust their population - because a law that precisely defines the tiniest subdetail exists in every area. About 60% of world-wide literature on taxes is in German. The moloch (leviathan) feeds itself.

"but I must say there appears to be something in the makeup of the German people that tends toward socialism, and that collectivist instinct can, I think, too easily tend towards nationalism."

I must disagree. The Germans that dissengaged themselved from the continent (from whom I am descended) are some of the hardest working, most self reliant, fiercly independent, proud people you will ever meet. If you doubt this spend some time in the Pennsylvania Dutch (Deutsch) Country.

What happened to that German spirit? I think we have broken it with over protection. Like a mother who continues to make her childs bed into what should be adulthood.

Time to cut the cord and allow the German people an opportunity to develop back to a state worthy of their fine heritage.

I agree with the Germans about the war in Iraq. I also hate the form of 19th century capitalism that is taking shape now that the communists aren't around to keep the robber barons and corporate crooks in check. I wouldn't trust the Bushies as far as I can throw them. I also realize that it is quite difficult to have another country's fighting men on your soil but, we can't all have our cake and eat it too. I also can't stomach the egregious, terrible things that the Germans say about Americans. I think that it is time for a divorce. However, I also think that more immigration and trade between the EU and America would be a good idea and go along way to help with our current situation. I do also respect the Germans committment to the well-being of their people. I wish that Americans would take our responsibility to each other more seriously. I think that Germany may come out of this whole period better than America because they have more respect for the poor and disadvantaged than does our current crop of Social Darwinists.

> One thing troubles me however, and that is the possibility that Germany will collapse under the cost of its socialist programs and another dictator will arise who will blame the country's problems on some external entity (perhaps the US?) and we will be right back where we were in the 1930s.

There's an important difference.

The US is far less interested in "saving" Europe these days.

We'd care about Poland and the UK, but would applaud if Germany invaded France and Belgium. It's less clear what we'd do about threats to the Baltics, the Scandanavian countries, Spain, Italy, or the little countries.

Yeah, Germany will 'get over' this shortly. And indefinitely into the future billions of dollars will be put into the US economy every year that would otherwise be in the German economy. Germany will grow poorer and we will grow more prosperous.

Socialists will never understand this.

My cluebat has become a bit rusty recently, so I'll have to apply it to some fresh tinfoil hats. And here we have Lynne, exposing her shallow half-knowledge, making a fool out of herself without knowing it. Let's fisk the two main points.

I also hate the form of 19th century capitalism that is taking shape now that the communists aren't around to keep the robber barons and corporate crooks in check.

The Communists, defenders of the people! I thought this fairytale would have been eradicated within every person with half a brain during the last century, but lo! It's the Communists who fight the robber barons and corporate crooks. First, compare the 19th century standards of living, work, and affluence to ours today. I'd say we have a dramatic decrease in poverty, diseases, and unemployment; I can dig out necessary stats if needed, but this SHOULD be self-evident. But the more hilarious part is that the greatest harm to humanity - Communists - who killed millions upon millions to defend their ideology, to let their asses grow fatter and their purses bigger; those demons who let thwir countries starve to live in solipsistic splendour, who sacrificed whole villages for a whim - are depicted as the paladins of humanity! Every ideology that concentrates on the masses, by underlining group think (and out-lawing individual thought deviant from the party line) - Nazism (yes, Hitler was a socialist), Soviet Communism, and nowadays Islamofascism - is hostile to democracy and to the individual freedom, because the individual counts nothing. It's globalisation that lifted the grave stone of poverty from many countries (compare India nowadays and 50 years ago, do the same with Japan, Korea, South America, etc.) - i.e. free trade and private property. I will never understand the twisted logic of those who turn history upside down.

I think that Germany may come out of this whole period better than America because they have more respect for the poor and disadvantaged than does our current crop of Social Darwinists.

The Germans in the 40s were especially benevolent concerning the disadvantaged, becuase they freed them from their sad existence, no?

Seriously, this is and outright lie. The EU defies genetically manipulated crop - which would be enormously helpful in defeating famines in Africa. The US supports this technology. The US invest more in the fight against AIDS than the whole EU, and spends more money (IIRC three- or fourfold) on the development of poor countries than the EU too. The EU criticises Israel but at the same time is building a fence at the Polish border to keep out unwanted immigranrs (the hypocrisy!). The EU supported Saddam Hussein and supports Arafat in his stinking lair in Ramallah, while the US have taken down a tyrant who systematically tortured and abused his people.

I hope Germany will fall back on its feet when we have to take care of our security more on our own. Pacifism is an eerie flower that only blossoms in places of utopia, i.e. where a vital function is outsourced -security.

--I also think that more immigration and trade between the EU and America would be a good idea and go along way to help with our current situation. --

Lynne, why don't you look up the trade numbers?

---

Hans - nice to read you again, great job on Lynne. You live it, she dreams it. However, she can live it anytime she wants to, but hasn't yet.

However, Lynne, glad you're out and about, maybe you'll believe the people who lived it.

You guys are pretty funny. It's nice to see someone get so upset.

WE had a little problem with robber barons here in the 19th century. We have a little problem again here. Enron, anyone? We don't have a Teddy Roosevelt to keep them under control, we have Mr. BIG BUSINESS George W. Bush.

I'm sorry I don't know trade figures on the EU, I do know that it is very hard for an average person to immigrate to the US from Europe because I know some people who have tried it.

Anyway, I don't have time to type more. Keep up the good work.

Dieses ist eine grosse nicht Ausgabe! Jeder wußte, daß die Amerikaner schließlich gehen würden. So ist es jetzt. Deutsche sollten sein dankbar für, was die Amerikaner für sie nach WWII taten, und Deutsche sollten den Krieg gegen Terror verbinden. Hoffnungsvoll wachen Deutsche zur Wirklichkeit der Welt heute auf.

@lynne I have to say that your post might just be the most insane post I have read on a blog, anywhere.
you say "However, I also think that more immigration and trade between the EU and America would be a good idea and go along way to help with our current situation.
*Huh? MORE immigration between the "eu" and the US??! In which direction? German immigration to the US slowed down many, many, decades ago, I know of no americans willing to head back the other way to germany. I am lost as to your point there.
you say "I do also respect the Germans committment to the well-being of their people."
Well- let the germans wash their cars on a sunday and shop anytime they want to, and STOP forcing a religious/church tax on its people, then I'll think the german govt REALLY cares for it's citizens rather than appeasing them into quietness, and financially stroking and milking them into serfdom.
you spew out this- "I wish that Americans would take our responsibility to each other more seriously."
again- huh???!!! Having over 75,000 US men and woman on german soil for 60 dman years ensuring a democracy, a unification, feeding the people, and keeping the hungry russians at bay for decades until their ideological collapse- is NOT the US helping the germans out???!
tell me lynne- WHAT has the germans done for the US in that time, or right now for that matter?
"Both ways" is right, and now that the US teat of generousity and commitment has been milked dry, the US can now say bye-bye.
your comments are amazingly simplistic and void of even a scintilla of reality.

wow, you then say this "I think that Germany may come out of this whole period better than America because they have more respect for the poor and disadvantaged than does our current crop of Social Darwinists."
WHO in the hell has told you that nonsense? You can provide NOT ONE fact to back that crap up, so why spew it out little missy? If the germans cared "more about the poor" as you say- do they have the abiltiy to do anything to stop poverty other than writing very small checks when the press is around? check out ANY data sheet on humanitarian contributions to the world. You would then be ashamed.
Words, deeds and actions are 3 completely seperate and different concepts.
For the sake of antler wearing souls everywhere, I am running to pour myself a very tall drink.


@Lynne

"We have a little problem again here. Enron, anyone?"

* Enron's Kenneth Lay has been indicted, George Bush IS President.
* European examples : Parmalat, Vivendi, Yukos

Robber Barons:

Vanderbuilt : Vanderbuilt Unversity
Carnegie : Carnegie Mellon Unversity
Gates : The most generous man in the history of the world. A listing would fill a book.

Where's the little problem?


"I'm sorry I don't know trade figures on the EU, I do know that it is very hard for an average person to immigrate to the US from Euope because I know some people who have tried it."

The US reamains the most attractive destination in the world for all socio-economic-religous strata. Particularily, not if you're educated.

Does Europe have immigration? History shows they have emmigration!

@Lynne

Just had to ask, how did you like Farenheit 9/11?

@Morgan

Es wäre ein Ehre fuer uns Deutschen zusammen mit Amerikanner Soldaten zu stehen. Bosonders wenn Mann denkt wie weit wir gekommen sind seit 1945.

Aber, unter Schröder, ich kann's nicht vorstellen.

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