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> opposition that Savage and, for that matter, >Rush, Hannity, and all the rest face in the U.S.

I don't know where you get off criticizing Hannity and "all the rest"...whomever that might be (probably people who disagree with your leftist view of the world). But I do agree that Der Spiegel's publishers ought to be brought to justice (legally or via a public Ohrfeige) for their slander against the USA. It is encouraging to see a leftist American defend his/her country in the face of the withering assault of lies from Stern and Spiegel (and Focus...and Die SZ...and N24).

> opposition that Savage and, for that matter, >Rush, Hannity, and all the rest face in the U.S.

I don't know where you get off criticizing Hannity and "all the rest"...whomever that might be (probably people who disagree with your leftist view of the world). But I do agree that Der Spiegel's publishers ought to be brought to justice (legally or via a public Ohrfeige) for their slander against the USA. It is encouraging to see a leftist American defend his/her country in the face of the withering assault of lies from Stern and Spiegel (and Focus...and Die SZ...and N24).

@Klink

I agree with Helian: You may be smart enough, Klink, but the average SPIEGEL reader isn't. ... The average German reader does not think critically, and swallows the SPIEGEL version of reality hook, line and sinker

From what I see around me, about 70%-80% of the Spiegel readers don't think critically, even though Nature, God, Allah, Big Bang etc issued them with the right tool (a smart brain). That's simply what I've been noticing for a long time.

I really don't understand how and why you can keep relativating the terrible influence Spiegel has. I have some theories:

- you sincerely believe that Spiegel isn't that influential in Germany
- you, as a critical German, are actually quite embarassed by the Spiegel and try to play down its importance in Germany, because it is embarassing
- you are blind to reality

You are free to believe what you like and I am not the type of person who tries to persuade other people to "see the light, my light". If you feel good with your belief, it's fine with me, even if I don't agree with you.

Quite frankly, in a "normal world" I couldn't care less what kind of junk Spiegel wanted to spread. The huge problem I see with the Spiegel in this abnormal world is that it widens the gap between Germany and the US. In fact, the whole German media does that.

Germany doesn't have to be a "vassal" of the US. Germany can and should go its own way, but I simply can't comprehend why this way has to widen the gap ? Because so many people believe that "Bush is a cowboy" ? Come on, this isn't school yard anymore.

@WhatDoIKnow
- you sincerely believe that Spiegel isn't that influential in Germany
- you, as a critical German, are actually quite embarassed by the Spiegel and try to play down its importance in Germany, because it is embarassing
- you are blind to reality

Lemme specify what I meant.

The SPIEGEL is a must-read in Germany, because they are damn well researchers. They constantly find juicy stuff (partially also because sources love to turn to SPIEGEL) and I can't think from scratch of giant blunders like Hitler-diaries or Daily Mirror-fake fotos.

The problem about SPIEGEL is its constant polemic spinning and their attempts to influence. (like suggesting the end of Chancellor Kohl on their cover already in 1984 the first time - did voters care about it? No.)

So of course I read occasionally SPIEGEL and regularly browse by SpOn.

But I - and I would think also the many academics Thomas cited or what you here hint at as being blind SPIEGEL-groupies - can usually differentiate between the facts of the story and the "yes, please hit the reader over the head into which direction he should think"-spin. Read things with a distance.

We talk here about the spinning, which isn't to be taken serious - not about their facts. If SPIEGEL openly directly lies, please say so. But if you'd talk with most people a bit deeper about SPIEGEL, they'll acknowledge it as well, that a lot is to smile about.

Like the recent article about German troops like "rabbits" in Kosovo. It was an interesting story with a lot of validity, but of course I smiled on the "rabbits"-quote and the underlying tone, so it was no surprise to me that I saw in the following weeks some articles in other media putting events into a bit of a different light (Sueddeutsche amongst them) and without a "like rabbits".

Btw: Daily Telegraph and many US-rightwing-blogs quoted SPIEGEL about German troops as "rabbits". I could see no corrections on them when other media painted things a tad differently. Partisanship is also on the right just as much: If a juicy quote fits your world-view, bring it. Suddenly SPIEGEL-polemics were credible to right-wingers. ROFL.

Again on the spinning: Die Hunde bellen, die Karawane zieht weiter. Tempest in a teapot. Etc, etc. I always call it "the BILD for intellectuals".

@Klink

I think we have different perceptions about Spiegel's level of influence. The fact is that there are no polls or studies on this subject, so none of us can really claim the truth. I can live with that.

There is one other thing though, which is obvious without any studies or polls to support it. Anti-americanism in the German media, masked as "objective journalism". I can read and I enjoy reading, at any time, a balanced critical view of the US and its policies. But those kind of views are extremely rare in the German media.

The prevalence of totally unbalanced criticism of the US in the German media is influencing people's opinions. The US boat and the German boat are drifting apart, the German media is the vigurous rower and the German public is an unsuspecting passenger, believing it is on a joy ride.

@ Niko, WhatDoIKnow, Klink

Well, this is a very decent discussion.
Equally what is said about the SPIEGEL, most of the german citizens get their information from TV.
And so you must not wonder about the public opinion about the USA, G.W.Bush and so on.
I think most of them don´t either have the time or the will getting more information, for example, through the internet.
And there is surely not a balanced information on TV. The only discussion and broadcast on IRAQ without the usual suspects like Scholl-Latour ("Europe,especially Germany should have nuclear weapons, to counter the threat from Iran", said at FRIEDMANN) and other "specialist" garbage was some month ago on ARTE. There they had people from IRAQ, Bosnia etc... for discussion. And, believe me, they had different opinions about the toppling of Saddam and so on then the usual "specialists".
In the usual TV-news you will hear/see about "a bomb here, a bomb there", only bombs and chaos and so on, but nothing about the daily life in Iraq, not to say from the progress being made there.
They measure the USA -and why not- with very high moral standards, but forget to measure Schröder´s new friends, the Paris-Berlin-Moscow-Peking-axis with similar standards. I think, if you have chosen new friends, you should do that.
Forgive me my comparision, Wilhelm Klink, but if you compare the 300.000-inhibitant cities of Fallujah and Grosny, after beiing a war in the first and a "non war" in the second: In Fallujah some buildings and the tower of a mosque came down. Grosny completely consists of ruins.
Shortly said:
There are double standards for measuring friends and there is no balanced reporting on some issues.
Balanced is not meant like: If you have shown one side, you always have to show the other side. But completely ignoring, that there are also other aspects of one thing, that´s what you call propaganda.
Grettings from Franz

@ Niko, WhatDoIKnow, Klink

Well, this is a very decent discussion.
Equally what is said about the SPIEGEL, most of the german citizens get their information from TV.
And so you must not wonder about the public opinion about the USA, G.W.Bush and so on.
I think most of them don´t either have the time or the will getting more information, for example, through the internet.
And there is surely not a balanced information on TV. The only discussion and broadcast on IRAQ without the usual suspects like Scholl-Latour ("Europe,especially Germany should have nuclear weapons, to counter the threat from Iran", said at FRIEDMANN) and other "specialist" garbage was some month ago on ARTE. There they had people from IRAQ, Bosnia etc... for discussion. And, believe me, they had different opinions about the toppling of Saddam and so on then the usual "specialists".
In the usual TV-news you will hear/see about "a bomb here, a bomb there", only bombs and chaos and so on, but nothing about the daily life in Iraq, not to say from the progress being made there.
They measure the USA -and why not- with very high moral standards, but forget to measure Schröder´s new friends, the Paris-Berlin-Moscow-Peking-axis with similar standards. I think, if you have chosen new friends, you should do that.
Forgive me my comparision, Wilhelm Klink, but if you compare the 300.000-inhibitant cities of Fallujah and Grosny, after beiing a war in the first and a "non war" in the second: In Fallujah some buildings and the tower of a mosque came down. Grosny completely consists of ruins.
Shortly said:
There are double standards for measuring friends and there is no balanced reporting on some issues.
Balanced is not meant like: If you have shown one side, you always have to show the other side. But completely ignoring, that there are also other aspects of one thing, that´s what you call propaganda.
Greetings from Franz

The heck!
I didn´t give my email-adress with the post, which is signed "Greetings from Franz"
So now it is done.
Franz

News Flash

"CHICAGO—Americans across the nation declared Tuesday that, after 230 years of trying to prove to England that the U.S. is a worthwhile and relevant country deserving of the European nation's respect, they are officially giving up.

...

Many Americans expressed great relief at the declaration, saying it freed them from their personal struggles to defend America's legitimacy."

http://www.theonion.com/

I can relate.

Nur ein Nachtrag zu etwas weiter oben:
Das ist eine Verschwörungstheorie, die ich so noch nicht kannte. Die USA sind also in Forschung und Wirtschaft deswegen internationale Spitzenreiter, weil sie die Deutschen ausspioniert haben? Oder, etwas abgeschwächt, es hätte einen Effekt auf die deutsche Wirtschaft, dass die Amerikaner unsere Wirtschaft ausspionieren? Interessant. (Likudniko)

Dann schauen wir mal: Selbst der frühere CIA-Chef James Woolsey räumte ein: "Ja, es stimmt, wir spionieren eure Wirtschaft aus!" Ist Mr. Woolsey für Sie/Dich (welche Anrede ist Ihnen/Dir lieber?) auch ein Verschwörungstheoretiker?
Auffällig ist andererseits, dass die amerikanische Wirtschaftsspionage doch ein bisschen zu sehr in den Vordergrund gerückt wird. Z.B. die Geheimdienste von Russland, Frankreich oder China sind hier auch "im Geschäft". Das Alles hat nichts mit Verschwörungstheorien, sondern mit Realismus zu tun.

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