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From David's Medienkritik: German Foreign minister Fischer lectured Colin Powell and Conti Rice during his visit this week in Washington... [Read More]

» How Does a Pot Call a Kettle Black in German? from VodkaPundit
From David's Medienkritik: German Foreign minister Fischer lectured Colin Powell and Conti Rice during his visit this week in Washington... [Read More]

» How Does a Pot Call a Kettle Black in German? from VodkaPundit
From David's Medienkritik: German Foreign minister Fischer lectured Colin Powell and Conti Rice during his visit this week in Washington... [Read More]

Comments

Not in Germany. Don't believe it. These had to Americans under contract to the Germany government. This is not possible. It is all a lie.

So gut!

2004-05-12 22:21:30
Wer Vermutungen darüber anstellen möchte, wohin dieser Krieg führen kann, sollte sich erst darüber informieren, was zu diesem Krieg geführt hat. Die Beschäftigung mit den aktuellen Ereignissen verstellt den Blick auf die Urheber dieser Situation. Seit circa 2 Jahren mehren und verstärken sich die Anzeichen, dass das OIL for FOOD Programm der UNO massiv von Saddam Hussein, Frankreich, Russland, der UNO und beteiligten Unternehmen / Personen für eigene materielle Interessen missbraucht worden ist. Zur Zeit gibt es, unabhänig voneinander, 3 Untersuchungen zu den Korruptionsvorwürfen gegenüber dem Oil for Food Programm: Die UNO selbst, unter Leitung von Paul Volcker, ehemaliger Chef der Federal Reserve Bank, das Iraqi Government Council, IGC, die Untersuchung soll von KPMG durchgeführt werden, der amerikanische Kongress, Hearing zu diesem Thema (schriftliche Statements eines Roland Berger Mitarbeiters und andere Berichte hierzu im Internet auf der offiziellen Web-Site des US House of Representatives: http://reform.house.gov/NSETIR/Hearings/EventSingle.aspx?EventID=943 ).

Das Oil for Food Programm ist das größte finanzielle Unterfangen, das die UNO je durchgeführt hat und die UNO hat noch nie soviel Geld, praktisch ohne Kontrolle, bewegen und für sich abzweigen können. Wie weit der Korruptionssumpf innerhalb der UN reicht bleibt abzuwarten, was bisher bekannt ist, lässt das Schlimmste befürchten. Die deutsche Öffentlichkeit erfährt hierzu praktisch nichts – jede Kleinigkeit über den Irak-Konflikt, die gegen Bush spricht, wird genüsslich zelebriert und praktisch real time publiziert, jedes Argument, das für Bush spricht, wird todgeschwiegen. In unglaublicher Einmütigkeit haben sich die deutschen Medien gegen die USA – nicht Bush, denn der ist und bleibt, das wird von den Amerikanern entschieden, der vom Amerikanischen Volk gewählte Repräsentant der Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika – verschworen und kultivieren einen bisher nie da gewesenen Anti-Amerikanismus.

Nehmen wir die Informationen zu den Korruptionsvorwürfen zu dem Oil for Food Programm und versetzen uns in den Herbst 2002:

Mit Hilfe des Oil for Food Programms hatte sich Saddam Hussein eine perfekte Lebensversicherung geschaffen:

Frankreich und Russland verdienten am Oil for Food Programm ausgezeichnet und hatten prima Verträge für die Zeit nach der Aufhebung der UN Sanktionen – wie man weiß haben beide Veto-Recht im UN Sicherheitsrat. Saddam Hussein wurde immer als „Survivor“, also als einer der überleben will, bezeichnet. Wer seinen Partnern viel Geld gibt, will auch etwas dafür haben, z.B. die verbindliche Zusicherung, dass es keine UN Resolution mit militärischen Zwangsmaßnahmen geben wird und dass man möglichst bald wieder unumschränkt Herr im eigenen Haus ist. Frankreich und Russland haben eine solche UN Resolution verhindert und immer wieder vehement die Aufhebung der Sanktionen gefordert ( aus rein humanitären Gründen versteht sich). Es lohnt sich unter diesem Blickwinkel die UN Resolutionen und Berichte von 1995 bis 2003 zu lesen.

Das Vorhaben von Präsident Bush im Herbst 2002 eine UN-Resolution mit Handlungsvollmacht für den Irak zu erwirken, war also auf eine, durch Bestechungsgelder garantierte, UNmöglichkeit gerichtet.

Wie, bitteschön, will man auf einen Diktator Druck ausüben, wenn die beteiligten Hauptakteure, Chirac, Putin und Annan, mit gezinkten Karten spielen (alle drei hatten finanzielle Interessen im Mrd. $ bzw. € Bereich)?

Und Deutschland? Deutschland hat völlig ohne Not und, hoffentlich, ohne von Saddam Hussein bestochen worden zu sein, die verlässlichen Beziehungen zu seinem einzigen wirklichen Freund, den USA, ruiniert. Zur Information: Die Amerikaner haben zur Kenntnis genommen, dass die Europäer, insbesondere Franzosen, Russen und Deutsche, Amerika hassen, richtig: hassen.

Ach ja, wohin führt der Krieg im Irak war die Frage: Die USA werden diese Aufgabe meistern, weil sie an sich und ihre Ideale glauben. Die USA haben 45 Jahre Kalten Krieg durchgestanden und sie sind sich bewusst, dass der Krieg gegen den Terror auch Jahrzehnte dauern kann.

Für Europa kommt es zu einer Zerreis Probe: Ein Europa mit sozialistischer Ausrichtung oder ein Europa mit Zukunft (Vielleicht berichten die deutschen Medien dann darüber).

L.G.M.

(aus zeit.de)

@LGM

URL? Ich kann nicht ganz glauben, daß ein ZEIT-Journalist derart moralisierendes Deutsch schreibt (und mit ein paar Fehlern).

Und ruiniert wurden die Beziehungen wohl eher durch die eigenartige und teilweise gelogene Beweis-Argumentationsschiene mittels 1441. Mittlerweile sind ja auch genug Bücher zu dem Thema aus dem inneren Zirkel von Bush erschienen.

You don't get it, punching, kicking, or whatever is a non-issue. Slow decapitations or shooting hostages in the head is uninteresting. Burning bodies, tearing them apart and hanging them from a bridge, yawn. Muslims on a genocidal rampage in Sudan, whatever. Humiliating hapless muslim prisoners...Humiliation at the hands of infidel women at that - worse then all atrocities in the history of the world...combined! At least you would would think so by the worldwide media obsession.

@LGM,

I think you’ve done an excellent job in providing an example on the institution that many Americans skeptically consider really only a bureaucratic necessity: the UN. America’s experience of broken promises of Eastern European free elections by uncle Joseph Stalin painted a clear picture into the inner-workings of the then newly formed UN. This experience into global “real-politick” eventually culminated into the Uncle Joe’s North Korean war and the Trumen doctrine. American did what it had to: containment.

What confuses me, and I think that I emphatically speak for most Americans, is that we are very confused in understanding the German government’s position surrounding the Iraq issue. Often I hear from postulating German colleagues as to how the “US broke the democratic unity of the UN.” That its foundations were really stressed… Correct me if I’m wrong, but I know of few UN successes and regrettably far more of it’s failures. I do not intend to encourage a litany of email suggesting its success. But I (we) try to understand how the Kanzler obviously exploited this, as a shameless diversionary tactic, to aid is troubled election campaign. And just how was it that obfuscating the issue and putting the UN onto an alter and holding it as holy were just clearly fabrications. How did the German public buy into it?? Knowing fully of our cherished commitment to the German state that has for so long, had the full support of the US. How could the Germans affront us in such a manner? Were we not flying airplanes full of coal, bread, fuel, pretzels, medical supplies, etc to negate the Soviet blockade of Berlin? Or were we just all jelly doughnuts?

If you (pl) wouldn’t mind in helping we American’s understand this newly invented German love-affair with all-things-bureaucratic, I think that we would all appreciate it. In all seriousness, my tone my sound sarcastic, but it is intended to be so. We are just beguiled as to where this migration from real-politick came from…

Thanks,
James

You guys have no finesse. People trip all the time going up and down stairs (wink).

how consequences get drawn in Germany:
http://tinyurl.com/3866m

@Mai,

Good idea. I think the head of the AI should resign too.

Too bad Germany did not have a position with this responsiblity in this 30's and 40's.

I posted this suggestion in the Joschka Fischer thread about 48 hours ago. I noticed nobody commented on it....I figured people just moved on to the next thread. I think this proposed voteing contest is apropos for this "Torture in Germany" thread.

I have a suggestion to the editors of this blog. A while back, Der Spiegel gave its readers an opportunity to vote on George Bush's performance. I suggest that the readers of this blog should get to choose who's worse, Lynddie England, the infamous Hundeleine girl, or all of Joschka Fischer's Kumpen and former roommates.

The voteing contest would look like this: Pick from the following list the person that you think is the most reprehensible.

Lynddie England - laughted at a naked Iraqi's penis

Ulrike Meinhof - killed a few German policeman and perhaps an American GI or 2

Andreas Baader - kidnapped and murdered a German businessman, killed a few policeman.

Hans Jochim Klein - Assited master Terrorist Carlos in the take over of the Opec Minister's summit - killed a Austrian few cops.

Daniel Cohn Bendit - Gastwirt, along with his roommate Joschka, for various terroists visting their apartment in Frankfurt, including the PLO/RAF group that hijacked the Air France flight to Entebbe, Uganda. Recently voted immunity by his fellow lefties in the EU parliment for whatever crimes and misdemeanors that he and Joseph, I mean Joschka were involved in.

Only one vote per person, and this means you Klink ;-).

Hope this puts thiings a little back into prospective on who has unclean hands.

I vote the Lynddie England for laughing at penis. That's a sensitive issue for me.

LGM is from Meinungsforum aus der Zeit!

Ihre Meinung

Irak: Wohin führt dieser Krieg?

Im Irak spitzt sich die Spirale der Gewalt zu. Nach Aussagen der US-Soldatin Lynndie England, die auf Fotos bei Misshandlungen von irakischen Gefangenen zu sehen ist, wiesen ranghöhere Offiziere der US-Armee die Folterungen an. Und nun dies:
Al-Qaida-Terroristen enthaupteten auf bestialische Weise einen amerikanischen Geschäftsmann.
Wohin führt dieser Krieg und mit welchen Mitteln kann der Irak befriedet werden? »

www.zeit.de


I, too, am disappointed in Klink's reflexive inability to look the truth in the eye.

@LGM:

Und Deutschland? Deutschland hat völlig ohne Not und, hoffentlich, ohne von Saddam Hussein bestochen worden zu sein, die verlässlichen Beziehungen zu seinem einzigen wirklichen Freund, den USA, ruiniert. Zur Information: Die Amerikaner haben zur Kenntnis genommen, dass die Europäer, insbesondere Franzosen, Russen und Deutsche, Amerika hassen, richtig: hassen.

That's the point! The strange thing is that the resentment among Americans increases proportionately with their socio-economic status. Those who know their history know what a watershed event Schröder's unilateral election to follow "den deutschen Weg" (the German way) was. There were other ways to handle this, but Schröder and his comrades just could not repress their rabid anti-americanism and '68 need to rebel. They threw out the post-war world order, one that had functioned well enough for almost 60 years, without having a viable alternative long before the WMD arguments were made by Powell at the UN. A simple, quiet "nein" would have sufficed to salvage that world order. Welcome to the brave new world. Kaiser Wilhelm II läßt grüßen.

Klink, I urge you to pay a visit to the American cemeteries in Verdun and Normandy and just stand there quietly for a half-hour or so. Even if you've been there before, go back. The one in Verdun (Romagne) has plots and memorials for about 15,000 Americans and is easy to reach from Germany. I've been there two or three times and still do not fully comprehend it.

It won't happen again.

Auf allen Kanälen und Radiosendern posaunen Journalisten, daß Fischer den Amerikanern seine Empörung über die Folterungen entgegengeschleudert hat. Das scheint vielen Journalisten unglaublich wichtig zu sein: Die Amerikaner kritisieren zu können. Auf gleicher Augenhöhe? Ne, jetzt schaut man runter. Ich hoffe, Fischer sieht das anders und wenn ich seine statements höre, bin ich zuversichtlich, daß er es aufrichtig meint, wenn er über die Führungsrolle der USA spricht. Amerika braucht keine deutsche Belehrung. Amerika braucht unsere Unterstützung. All die, die das nicht wollen hier in Europa, mögen genau wie die 52 britischen Diplomaten offenlegen, welche finanziellen Kontakte sie in arabische Länder haben. Alles wegen Öl schreien die, die alles wegen Geld machen.

anonyme Stellungnahme aus Meinungsforum in der ZEIT:


"2004-05-13 12:21:53
Zur Beantwortung der Frage “Wohin führt dieser Krieg ? muss man sich als erstes darüber im klaren sein von welchen Krieg man spricht, von Irak Krieg der vor Monaten beendet wurde oder vom eigentlichen Krieg : DIE SCHLACHT DER MEDIEN GEGEN BUSH & Co. oder der Schlacht der einfachen Iraker ein normales Leben zu führen?

Wer auch immer der Meinung ist, das wäre falsch, der betrachte doch mal die Schlagzeilen in sämtlichen Medien und suche nach den Schlagzeilen die konkrete Vorschläge und Hilfe für den Wiederaufbau in Irak machen und / oder suchen.

Die Länder die sich gegen den Krieg ausgesprochen haben, hätten jetzt alle Voraussetzungen sich konkret für den Wiederaufbau mit Ideen etc.. im Irak einzusetzen. Nichts desto trotz hat man dort nur eine Motivierungen, mit dem Finger auf die USA zu zeigen, und sich für ihre damalige „humane“ Entscheidung gegen den Krieg im Irak auf die Schulter zu klopfen. De facto ist das die einzige Hilfe die z.B. Deutschland betreibt, was den einfachen Iraker betrifft, kann der wohl auf diese Hilfe verzichten. Was Deutschland im Irak betreibt, fällt wohl unter den Sprachgebrauch „Unterlassene Hilfeleistung“ und ist nicht gerade human.

Was die Presse betrifft, kommt man wohl nicht darum herum festzustellen, das sie mit der Verbreitung der Botschaften von Bin Laden & Co. in Echtzeit, einen PR – Zug für Bin Laden macht, den er nicht besser hätte machen können ( und das auch noch gratis).

Würde ein Deutscher, wie auch immer zum Mord an den Holländern aufrufen, wäre der wohl schneller im Gefängnis als man darüber berichten kann, unter anderen wegen Aufruf zur Begehung einer Straftat. Ganz anderes aber wenn die Press weltweit Bin Ladens Mordaufrufe gegenüber Kofi Anan oder Paul Bremer oder .... verbreitet, keinen stört es. ( bis auf Herrn Anan & Bremer)

Bin Laden braucht gar kein Netzwerk, es reicht, dass er jemand zum Tode verurteilt, die Press macht den Rest, verbreitet die Nachricht und jeder unzufrieden und / oder Möchtegern Terrorist macht sich auf die Jagd.

Die Presse als Unschuldslamm, nun es scheint wir haben es wohl ehr mit dem Wolf im Schafsfell zu tun, die Presse jagt nach Schlagzeilen verpackt mit der Etikette Pressfreiheit,

WO BLEIBT DIE PRESSEVERANTWORTUNG ? ( geht wohl unter, mit einem eventuellen Auflagenverlust?

Danach wird klar, dass WIR KEINEN INTERNATIONALEN GERICHTSHOF BRAUCHEN, es reicht, dass das Thema durch die Presse geht und das Volkurteil ist ("gerecht "-) fertig.

Nehmen wir mal als Beispiel das Thema Folter, alle stürzen sich auf die „Besatzung Mächte“, informiert über die Medien und man braucht keine Justiz mehr, da man ja alles im TV mundgerecht serviert bekommt. Es überschlagen sich die Nachrichten, wie lange der Sachverhalt bekannt war um die Dramatik zu erhöhen und aus 150000 Soldaten werden 150000 Folterer. Klar das kaum einer den Umstand bemängelt, das den Organisationen, wie Rotes Kreuz, Amnesty International erst jetzt Gehör durch die Medien verschafft wurde und nicht früher ( Warum ? ), da hilft auch nicht sich auf Vertraulichkeit zu berufen, da das gezielte filtern von Information an die Presse noch nie ein Problem darstellt hat. ( Bemerkung !! es geht nicht darum die Sachen unter den Tisch zu kehren !!!!, sondern den Behörden zuzuführen die in der Demokratie dafür geschaffen worden sind, denn letztendlich geht es in der Presse um Macht und Geld, während die Gerichte sich um das Recht kümmern ( nicht immer perfekt aber immerhin besser als Presse Justiz).

Dank der Presse Juztiz hat zumindest schon ein Amerikaner den Kopf verloren, soviel zum Thema Presse-Verantwortung.

Was die Lösung des Irak Konflikts betrifft, so lange die Schlacht der „Europäer“ gegen die Amerikanern andauert , freuen sich dritte ( Bin Laden & Co. ) und die Verlierer kurzfristig werden die einfachen Iraker sein und langfristig Europa, das zum Schlachtfeld aller Islamischer Extremisten wird, die ihren Frust im eigenen Land ( „aus gesundheitlichen Gründen) nicht ausleben können und eben hierher kommen. Schade nur, dass in Deutschland das nur begreifen wird, wenn die Hobby Terroristen mit satter finanzieller Unterstützung, die erste Bombe hier hochgehen lassen.

Kurz gesagt, solange nicht alle denen die Terroristen den Krieg erklärt haben zusammenhalten und dagegen kämpfen (nicht nur Reden schwingen), und wenn der Europa & USA hick hack über die Irak Kriegs - Legitimität nicht aufhört und alle zusammen versuchen im Irak zu helfen, anstatt sich zu streiten, solange gibt es keine Lösung, da alle mit anderen Dingen beschäftigt sind. ( z.B. von der innenpolitischen ökonomischen Lage in Deutschland oder Frankreich ... abzulenken). Aber keine Sorge die Rechung kommt ...."

Aber keine Sorge die Rechung kommt ....

Ich habe keine Zweifel, dass Terroristen gegenwärtig an der "Europa-Rechnung" basteln. Ob sie diese "Rechnung" auch liefern werden weiss keiner. Wie man so oft sagt, die Terroristen brauchen nur einmal Glück zu haben. Dagegen, muss die Polizei immer Glück haben. Rein statistisch ist das schwer zu glauben. Aber hoffen wir, dass die Europäer die Statistiken bezwingen. Ich lebe auch gerne in Frieden und Sicherheit...

Ich habe viel Vertrauen in die Polizei und Geheimdienste. Ich habe aber NULL Vertrauen in die gegenwärtigen Politiker und Meinungsmacher, was die Sicherheit angeht. Letztendlich sind es diese die die Politk machen und beinflüssen. Zur Zeit erwarte ich von diesen nur Schlechtes.

z.B. von der innenpolitischen ökonomischen Lage in Deutschland oder Frankreich ... abzulenken??????

nicht alleine,auch davon :


Wärter prügelten angeblich auf wehrlose Häftlinge ein


Häftlinge in einem brandenburgischen Gefängnis (Foto: dpa)
In Ostdeutschland bahnt sich ein Justizskandal an: In einer brandenburgischen Haftanstalt sollen Bedienstete Gefangene brutal misshandelt haben. Wehrlose Insassen sollen verprügelt und zum Teil schwer verletzt worden sein. Das Potsdamer Justizministerium hat am Donnerstag einen entsprechenden Bericht des RBB-Magazins "Klartext" teilweise bestätigt.


Vermummte Beamte mit Schlagstöcken
Der Ort des Schreckens: Die Justizvollzugsanstalt Brandenburg an der Havel. Eines der Opfer ist Friedrich Frank. Am 23. Januar bekommt der Invalide, der schon früher am Herzen operiert wurde, seine Medikamente nicht. Als er am Abend wegen Schmerzen in der Brust Hilfe verlangt, passiert folgendes: "Auf einmal, ich liege auf dem Bett, da kommen sie rein die maskierten Leute ... mit Knüppeln. Sie haben mich gerollt. Ich bin gefallen mit dem Gesicht auf den Boden, sie haben mich weiter gedrückt und geschlagen mit Gummiknüppeln", erzählt er in dem Fernseh-Interview. Erst am nächsten Tag wird Frank medizinisch versorgt - und überlebt knapp.


In einer Arrestzelle ans Bett gefesselt
Der Vater eines anderen Opfers klagt in dem "Klartext"-Bericht: "Ich habe bald mein eigenes Kind nicht wieder erkannt. Die Stirn zerschlagen, Platzwunden und mit den Handschnitten alles aufgeschnitten und rot, blaue Flecken, grau im Gesicht, also wie eine Leiche." Sein Sohn soll in einer Arrestzelle an einem Bett festgekettet worden sein. Wenn er auf Toilette musste, pinkelte er entweder in den Zahnputzbecher oder rief Wärter, die ihm zwar die Fesseln abnahmen, aber nur um ihn zu verprügeln.


Übergriffe erfolgten oft in der Nacht
Die mit so genannten Sturmmasken getarnten Beamten sollen in Dreier- bis Vierer-Gruppen aufgetreten sein. Die Übergriffe erfolgten meist nachts. Die Beamten schlugen mit Schlagstöcken und Fäusten auf die Gefangenen ein. Die Opfer erlitten zum Teil schwere Verletzungen und Knochenbrüche.

Magazin beruft sich auf mehrere Zeugen
Das Magazin hatte mehrere Zeugen befragt - zwei ehemalige und ein noch im Vollzug befindliches Opfer. Die Misshandlungen waren offenbar keine einmalige Aktion, sondern sollen über Jahre hinweg systematisch betrieben worden sein. Die Opfer gaben an, in den Jahren 2001 bis 2004 malträtiert worden zu sein.

DDR-Wärter in den Staatsdienst übernommen
Das Gefängnis in Brandenburg an der Havel war nach RBB-Angaben schon zu DDR-Zeiten berüchtigt für seine Schlägertrupps. Nach der Wende wurden viele ehemalige Wärter übernommen - offenbar ohne sich von ihren alten Praktiken zu verabschieden.

Staatsanwalt hat Ermittlungen aufgenommen
Bisherige Anzeigen der Opfer blieben ohne Folgen für die Beamten. Doch mit dem Fall des herzkranken Frank könnte sich das jetzt ändern. Die Justizvollzugsanstalt prüft Disziplinarverfahren gegen insgesamt acht Beamte, und die Staatsanwaltschaft hat Ermittlungen wegen gefährlicher Körperverletzung im Amt und unterlassener Hilfeleistung aufgenommen. "Wir arbeiten an umfassenden strukturellen, organisatorischen Maßnahmen, die Fehlentwicklungen, die es ganz offensichtlich in der Vergangenheit gegeben hat, endgültig auszumerzen", sagte ein Justizstaatssekretär dem Fernseh-Magazin.

quelle: welt

aber wer jetzt auf die suche nach diesem artikel im netzt geht findet dort nur eine "beschnittene" version auf dieser seite:


http://hubertus-apotheke-bogen.de/frame_aktuelles.php?datum=2003-07-24&id=15

How dare you, you heartless pro-American lackeys! Don't you realize that on the continent of humanitarian do-gooders, examples of abuse like this one is the exception!? Things like this almost never happen in Europe — when did they happen in Germany, for instance, apart from that single teeny-weeny instance a few years back? Huh? An' certainly zey never, ever 'appen in ze land of 'uman rights!

einige gefundene quellen:

http://www.welt.de/data/2004/05/06/274685.html?search=W%E4rter&searchHILI=1

http://www.welt.de/data/2004/05/07/274754.html?search=W%E4rter&searchHILI=1

http://www.welt.de/data/2004/05/08/275308.html?search=W%E4rter&searchHILI=1

es soll sich nach ersten ermittlungen um ehemaliges oersonal des justizvollzugs aus der DDR handeln.

viel spass beim lesen,wer andere hinweise in der deutschen presse findet ist aufgerufen sie hier zu posten.


ELCI

@ George M:

Deine Abstimmung ist lachhaft. Abgesehen davon, dass Joschkas Vergangenheit (Putztruppe, angebliche "Kontakte" zu Carlos und Baader-Meinhof, etc.) bis zum Erbrechen vor 3 Jahren durchgekaut wurde (und er sich einigermassen glaubwürdig davon distanzieren konnte), funktioniert Dein Versuch, die Misshandlungen im Irak mit den Verfehlungen linker Politiker wie Fischer und Cohn-Bendit (von dem ich persöhnlich garnichts halte) zu vergleichen allein schon auf der zeitlichen Ebene nicht. Sehr fragwürdig weiterhin Dein Versuch, die Vorgänge in Abu Graib mit Hinweis auf den deutschen Herbst relativieren zu wollen ("hope this puts things a little into perspective"). Kreativer wäre ein Vergleich mit Gefangenschaft in der DDR gewesen (auch ein interessantes Kapitel, wenn man bedenkt, wie die BRD wohlweislich immer zu den ihr bekannten Menschenrechtsverletzungen in DDR-Gefängnissen geschwiegen hat).

Hier scheint es eine Art Reflex zu geben, die Vorgänge in Abu Graib mit Verweisen auf "ähnliche" Vorgänge in Deutschland zu kontern, insinuiert wird dadurch ein doppelter Standart deutscher Medien. Ehrlich gesagt finde ich das schade. Samir al-Iraq hatte den richtigen Ansatz, indem er (zwar etwas krude) die öffentliche Wahrnehmung von Opfern VOR dem Krieg mit NACH dem Krieg vergleicht. Aber vereinzelt auftretende Übergriffe von Polizisten und Gefängniswärtern in Deutschland (wie sieht das denn in den USA aus? gibts da auch, oder?) mit den inzwischen systematisch anmutenden Vorgängen in Abu Graib zu vergleichen ist argumentativ eine ziemlich schwache Leistung.

LGM is from Meinungsforum aus der Zeit!

Okay, at least I don't have to change my views now on ZEIT-journalists writing style.. LOL.

So somebody discovered now c&p and will bring us comments from other blogs and simply fill in their name into the "Name"-field instead of one's own nick, like LGM, anonymous, ECLI? Great spamming-method without having to use your own brain.

@Karl B.
They threw out the post-war world order, one that had functioned well enough for almost 60 years, without having a viable alternative long before the WMD arguments were made by Powell at the UN.

My point as well, ironically, - the Bush administration were long determined with or without WMD-arguments. With no need, they went openly against many of their traditional Allies if those wouldn't be following blindly. Bush unnecessarly blew a lot of the international credit his predecessors built up over the decades. Something which is even often today a topic in campaign-speeches from US-Democrats, btw. (It's not as if this man hasn't even managed to create great division and controversy within his own country)

Klink, I urge you to pay a visit to the American cemeteries in Verdun and Normandy and just stand there quietly for a half-hour or so. Even if you've been there before, go back.

US-troops back then had good leaders who were able to form and keep alliances.

US-troops today in Iraq or possibly some day in Syria or Iran deserve a better politically skilled leader, Karl. US-troops are risking their lives - while George Bush even hesitates to go into open press-conferences with free questionings, not even mentioning his own biography.

@Erik
Things like this almost never happen in Europe — when did they happen in Germany, for instance, apart from that single teeny-weeny instance a few years back?

LOL - our Parisian American mentioning Hitler. Godwin's law - you lose. Besides, what a comparison - is Erik Svane's standard of human-rights to say: "But Hitler was still worse"?

@joaninho
Aber vereinzelt auftretende Übergriffe von Polizisten und Gefängniswärtern in Deutschland (wie sieht das denn in den USA aus? gibts da auch, oder?)

Natürlich - einfach mal bei amnesty.org oder hrw.org vorbeisurfen.

Manche Leute hier verstehen offenbar nicht den Unterschied der Problematik zwischen domestic und international - wenn nun deutsche Soldaten ebenfalls in Afghanistan solche Bilder machen würden, DANN wäre es passend und sehr gerechtfertig (IMO gab es doch mal Skandale in Kosovo - die könnte man ja bringen, wenn man unbedingt die Schiene unbedingt reiten will, um die internationalen Human-Rights-Standards offenbar zu relativieren)

@Klink

Good afternoon.

Have a non topic question for you.

How much do you know about how our presidental process elctions and the electoral college works?

Anmerkung: Wer die Übergriffe von Polizisten / Strafvollzugsbeamten in deutschen Gefängnissen anprangert, sollte ebenso die Übergriffe in US-Gefängnissen (auch hier ), in Spanien, in Italien etc. etc erwähnen...

Man könnte daraus natürlich jetzt etwas blasphemisch schlussfolgern, Misshandlung und "Folter" in welcher Form auch immer wären sozusagen Teil des "Wesens" von Gefängnissen, grundsätzlich geht es aber hier doch immer noch um die Vorgänge im Irak - das Medienecho ist in diesem Fall deswegen so hoch (auf allen Seiten), weil der Unterschied zwischen Anspruch (auf Befreiung und Demokratisierung eines unterdrückten Landes) und Wirklichkeit (in Form von Misshandlungen Gefangenenr, Kampf gegen Aufständische) der amerikanischen Führung und ihrer Soldaten so gross ist, und deswegen die "moralische Hegemonie", die vorher so medienwirksam etabliert wurde, gerade in den Augen der arabischen Welt in sich zusammenfällt. Da scheint ein Vergleich mit den Verhältnissen in deutschen Gefänginssen igendwie an den Haaren herbeigezogen. In diesem Zusammenhang wäre es von Seiten der Medien angebracht, herauszustellen, dass es sich nur um eine Minderheit in der Armee handelt - und gleichzeitig die Verantwortlichen dafür zu präsentieren. Ob das in dieser Form wirklich passiert, mag diskussionswürdig sein.

@Joe
How much do you know about how our presidental process elctions and the electoral college works?

82%.

Klink

Please I just could not let that comment about allies pass.

You keep using that term “allies”. Just whom do you mean? This is how you confuse me. Would an ally really refer to the President of the US as Hitler? Come on Klink is that German good will. I know at one time most of Germany had love fest going with him and would follow him into hell. I guess you could say that is what those people in Dresden actually got. But today’s Germans, the still hold such warm feeling for the past? I am really confused by your elites.

** as an aside I think some of the background was about the poor performance of the US economy and how everything the President was saying was to distract us stupid Americans while you complex, morale and intellectually superior Germans focus on the real issues of jobs, deficits, education, an economy growth. WHAT THE HELL happened to those issues?***

And do you really think Germany would deploy troops anywhere, where they might actually fight someone. I mean fighting is dangerous business, people get killed, and people die, and lives change, and nations suffer. Are you actually telling me Germans would do something like. WHAT THE HELL, happened last night in Germany to change this attitude? It surely was not on the news here. Of course, I need to ask did Paris clear this? Do the french know?

Goodwill time is over Klink. It actually ended with the fall of the wall. We are just figuring that out on this side of the Atlantic.

Kerry that twit says he is going to go to the UN for more troops. The American people go, Oh yea and the french, because he looks so french, are going to say sure John how many legions do you want and when and where do you want them. We hated Bush too. Glad you Americans are back. LOL!

Klink you at times can be so funny.. I am just LMAO


@Klink

LOL

That is a wonderful answer. I must remember it.

So you know about how the electoral college votes each state has is the combined total of the members of Congress.

How the winner of the popular vote in each state gets all of that states electoral votes.

How 269 are needed to be elected President.


@JOE's

Can you guys make up your mind and find an individual nick? Also so that I can know who is the normal Joe and who is the concentration-camp-instrumentalizer-Joe?

And it's 270, not 269. Nice try though.

@Klink

You seem to follow more closely how the current election for President is progressing. I know it is early and the real campagin will not start until after 1 September and even a bit later on a national scale because of how late the respective party conventions are being held this.

I would like for you to pick 10 states where you think Kerry will win. I can figure out the electoral votes for these later.

I would be interested in your prespection on this. I will not even comment on them. Actually your views might be more accurate than many of those in the US.

I would for sure think he will carry his home state unlike Gore's failure to carry TN. I would also think he would carry New York and all of New England. But I do not want to influence you.

Klink,

I am the human rights Joe. I have finally found my prism.

Check out Belmont Club - tide's beginning to turn, it's working.

Prison story is noise, especially during the long haul we have ahead. Block out the white noise and focus on what's going on there.

After Ben Franklin came out of Independence Hall after writing the Constitution, a woman came up to him and asked what he/they were doing there. He said something along the lines of:

"Giving you a country, madam, if you can keep it." True then, true now. It's not up to US, it's up to them.


Listen, guys, I am too old for highschool-type of nick-change games. Until you figured out a way to act like adults and not all post under one nick, I'll pass.

btw: Prism? is that "Stone"?

e.o.d. for now.

Klink

I am just Joe. The other Joe is now using Joe2.

I was thinking of changing to 313 if this continued to be an issue but the other Joe became Joe2.

But given I enjoy your prespective and you actually give me something to comment about, we can chose another nick for me you like.


Suggestions? I am really ambvialent about it.


Klink,

The reason I enjoy your comments is they offer a different perspective, which I think is very important. Therefore even we almost always differ on our viewpoint, I enjoy them none the less.

Since there was upset about SPIEGEL's cover:

The cover of TIME Magazine from this week can be seen here.

@klink and those that defend the german "policy of delusional fools"-
Klink- you do not seem to realize that with the extreme degree of intellectual retardation, cowardice and child-like diplomacy prevalent across the board with the clowns who govern your fully crippled society- that so many of us here in the US simply laugh at the hypocrisy, fumbling, and in-effectiveness of both your government and your so called "military" (who run like rabbits to hide in Kosovo- a DISGRACE in a modern world).
Germany wants a seat on the UN security council?? AHHAHHAAHH!!!!!! Based on WHAT capabilities?????!!!! Based on WHAT contributions??? Do you think the US, or even a portion of the world (other than the primitive arabs)would want the german ideologies and economic stagnation imported across the globe? What is it that germany has EVER "secured, developed, or contributed" to either the world or at the very least to the european continent?? Not one damn thing other than multiple failed attempts to take over the entire continent. Since the fall of the wall 15 short years ago the world has watched your country fall apart more quickly than it was re-built by US blood, effort and monies. You now have NO successes or contributions to the world even after "being made whole" again. What does that tell you about your abilities or policies?
You in germany have shown your true modern face, and you have shown your true modern ideologies and you have proven to the US that not one damn thing has changed for you since 1930.
One short decade after the US effort brings down the wall, re-unites germany under the security blanket of blood and money of the US men and woman, and just 60 years after the US SHOWS YOU DEMOCRACY and a constitution we are once again, re-introduced to the crusty german minds identical to yours.
Neither of you seem to be aware of the immense amounts of WMD all across the middle east the Iraq war has exposed. Why is that so difficult for you? Are you even aware of germany's role in these weapons you imbecile?
You are in some type of psychotic state of denial to current times and with regard to history.
This time this psychosis will kill you again and the US will stand back and 300 million people will laugh out loud at your pathetic selves as your country governed by those with your flintstone/neanderthal mind set collapses.
The burden of proof of any non-alignment with terror was upon Saddam and he failed. Saddam was chased from power and then found un-shaved in a little rat hole. Germany played no role in the toppling of the 21st century's greatest dictator, a guy one notch below the german leader Hitler. The German contribution to his fall was simply petty obstructionism and cheap child-like comments that your's mirror so well. The US left the Iraqi borders open during this war to allow for the eu jihaidis and the virgin-seekers from around the world can come to Iraq to "play" with the US troops and then be beaten into the sand. The US is achieving these goals substantially on a daily basis.
Do NOT refer to germany as an "ally" of the US as that relationship DIED 15 years ago. If the US had another opportunity to provide food, money, and goods via an airlift to your country- we would now drop NOTHING but 10's of 1000's of pounds of horse szhit on your heads.
The country of germany was and IS a breeding ground for those who attacked spain and the US. What is it about life in germany that these middle easterners come to accept your housing, welfare monies and "hospitality" yet spend a few short years in your stifling cities and turn around and want to blow up all the is western? Can you provide an answer to that question?
CAN you answer that? And when the flea-brained hippy Fischer, speaking with what sounded like marbles in his mouth said to Rusmfeld last year- "I am not convinced"- was he referring to the german intelligence reports given to Powell regarding mobile chem labs that have proven to be bad intel?
You would show that you possess an active neuron or two if you would simply shut down your keyboard, close your damn mouth, and permit the US to bring to the middle east the same conditions it brought for a constitution and a democracy after your country germany brutalized YOUR continent for one century.
It is obvious to the US the fact that germany has NO capabilities, and THAT is what truly keeps germany holding on to the "policy of fools- via bumbling sophomoric in-action" that is expediting the fall of your country.

@Klink...

You stated in an earlier post that Bush had plans to overthrow Hussein before 9/11.. True... but...

Regime change in IRAQ has been official US Government policy since 1998. The IRAQ Liberation Act was signed by William Jefferson Clinton (The one the Europeans love). The only difference between Bush (the one the Europeans hate) and CLinton is that Bush actually did something about it.
To be honest the act advocates the overthrow of Hussein, but does not provide for war.
Because of 9/11 Bush decided to end the war that was started in 90-91 - by Saddam.
Yes this is a part of the first war. A peace treaty was never reached, only a cease fire.
And the conditions of maintaining that cease fire
be that Saddam fulfill his obligations under that cease fire. And I don't know of anyone who would say that Saddam fulfilled those obligations.
Illegaler Angriffskrieg vom Bush? I don't think so... Saddam was firing at US and British planes in the no fly zones along time ago. a no fly zone that was part of the cease fire agreement - and the US and the UK had the rights to fly there.
Any other country with any firepower under similar conditions (China, Russia for example) would have squashed Saddam then and there...

Klink, I have a question for you.
The US is the (in the words of the former French minister) - the hypermacht... it has power.. much power.. more than any other govt now or in past history perhaps..
and with the nature of power being what it is, abuses occur. I would be the first to admit that the US does not always use that power wisely/correctly.
But I pose this question.. would you rather that RUssia be the hypermacht? China? no thanks...
Germany and Japan were also world powers of a sort during the 40s.. No thanks...
My point is that there is sometimes a 'geringste Übel'. The first question I always ask someone
in a political discussion 'How would YOUR country behave if it had the power of the US'? If they say 'worse' or 'I dont know', I can talk to them.
If they say better, than I know any conversation is pointless - not because it is not possible for any country to behave better (It may very well be), but anyone who KNOWS that their country would behave better under similar circumstances is - to be honest... ARROGANT..
Übrigens .. Arroganz ist nicht nur eine Eigenschaft unter Amerikaner..
Besserwisserisch bedeutet arrogant, oder?
Und wo kommt der Spitzname Besserwessi her?

Klink, you just don't get it, do you? This has nothing to do with Bush and everything to do with the perfidy of Old European foreign relations. Old Europe behaved no more responsibly with Clinton (Kyoto anyone? UN Human Rights Commission?). The Old Europeans didn't attack Clinton personally, but they did everything imaginable to block and check America on the world stage. Once the immediate threat of Soviet aggression was gone, the tone changed dramatically and your true feelings started to come out. That's fine if you'd rather look at us as a rival, but you're now trying to make it look like it is America's fault.

I'm no friend of Bush, but I don't buy the Bush bashing over here. It is just a new verse in an old anti-american song, one I've grown tired of. Don't count on the Democrats to bolster your position. We got a real eye full the past two years and know who our friends are. If you were to ask Bill Clinton or John Kornblum what they thought of the way Schröder handled the Iraq crisis you might be surprised by the answers you got.

Let's face it, Iraq II was basically an enforcement action against a country that failed to live up to the armistice conditions of Iraq I. On September 12, 2001, the unstable situation in Iraq, with the constant need for intervention (no-fly etc.), was no longer tolerable to the United States. Leaving Saddam in place was not an option. It would not have surprised me one bit if even a President Gore (actually a conservative new Democrat -- who BTW volunteered to serve in a non-combat job in Vietnam) had decided to confront Saddam. Go ahead and bang on Bush for the way he handled the build-up and the WMD rationalizations that he used, but IMO any justification that we might have used in pursuing a show-down with Saddam would have produced the same level of opposition in Old Europe. There was nothing that we could have done to persuade France and Russia to join us. Only a united western position that forced Saddam out might have prevented war. But the Oil for Food program and prospects for rich contracts from Saddam after sanctions were lifted were too much for Russia and France, so they refused to help build that united front. Germany went its own way for its own reasons and ended up clinging pitifully to France and Russia to prevent becoming totally isolated. If you don't believe me, go ask Hillary.

The icing on the cake was watching the SPD fan the flames of anti-americanism as a fig leaf to hide the fact that they had done nothing for Germany during their first four years in power.

The rest is history. Everyone played their cards. At least now we know where we stand.

Steve,

You are using facts. Facts are not very big in Euroland. They do not fit the picture of the world as the euro elites want to view it.

So while what you said is all factual, it is not really important to the euro's.

You do point out a good question to ask someone. Of course, if they happen to be french, or German, or English, or Russia or believe in the UN, you might ask them why their own intelligent services believed that Iraq had WMD's.

A follow on to that might be if they believed Saddam would ever use WMD's. I would not ask them if he would have shared a small amount of them to a terrorist organization so they could be used against the West. That is way beyond their zone of comfort.

Remember a lot of the euro's think this all about oil and this is all staged anyway.

@Johano

First, my contest is satire.

2nd, It is pathetic that the German Aussenminister dares to set foot in the United States to lecuture the American government about human rights and proper conduct when his own past is very spotted with abuse and misconduct.

3rd, Lynddie England to the best of my knowledge did not physically abuse or assault Iraqi prisoners. However, she did humilate them. The distinction is important. Look below in the pictures. Joseph aka Joschka Fische,r in the Darth Vader helmet, is assaulting a German policeman. He physically abused and I believed injured the German policeman. He has also been accused of either planning or instigating the use of molitov cocktails against German policemen. Lynddie England, as far as the facts are presented, only laughed at an Iraqi's penis and posed with an Iraqi on a dog leash.

4th, Fischer's 1968 drinking buddies have murdered. This includes Klein, Meinhof, Bader, the Entebbe hyjackers, ect.

5th, Cohn Bennit is a pedophile and should have become a Catholic priest in Boston. He was probably not destined to be a politician.

For an American, what Fischer did was a total scharade. For him to lecture Americans about human rights is the equivalent of Lybia or the Sudan being appointed the Vorsitzender of the UN Human Rights Committee.

@PATO

Wow, what a great, high level speech,
but too bad its a slap in the face of all pro American (including me) on this side of the ocean.

Use the strong language your mind fits the best, I have no problem with that - still it is anything but helpful.

When I first read it, I thought I should answer your posting, that there are people out here supporting Bushs approach and his policies like me.
But you are evidently not interested in hearing facts like, beside US troops no other nation send more troops to afghanistan and to fight the war on terror, that the US Govern repeadingly tells everybody how they appriciate Germanys efforts in the war against terror (ask rummy, condi and ashcroft!), how the Bush administration IS considering Germany as a strong, solid and important ally, or that Germany is the top level money giver to the UN, okay doesn't count, since the UN is in your opinion a sort of terror organisation.

But after all, you choose to ignore historical facts and facts one can't possibly deny, so what the hell, its is worthless to answer you with a serious approach. I deeply regret that.

So I will not confront you, I'm retreading like
a hidding rabbit, I guess thats what you said about German military in kosovo,

Now you can "drop NOTHING but 10's of 1000's of pounds of horse szhit" on my head

Oh, please wait a couple seconds, I'd like to enjoy Rush on his news talk first, before you make me smell funny

@Ralf,

Do some fact checking.

Of course all those people are going to say that about Germany. That is both what they get paid for and what they are suppose to say.

I would challenge you to list just what all this support is...that Germany is providing.

Am glad you enjoyed Rush. Kerry is a real twit. I have to believe that the euro's know little about him. All they know is he is not Bush. He has to be better, anyone would have to be better.

@ralf-
easy now Ralf. it's people like you that give me hope that sanity rests somehwere within the german population. Don't underestimate the effect that your media and your govts mouths have on US opinion of germany. I have more friends in germany than germany has police or troops abroad, yet in gerneral I am developing seething hate for much of germany based simply on what comes from your media and politicians mouths- hell, what did you expect? Who can believe such absolute child-like szhit from "adults"?
You are a rare breed within your country and you should speak out about your beliefs whenever you have a chance, like you did here.
I am sorry if the fact the german "soliders" ran like rabbits recently in kosovo, I do understand how much that must pain you.
but Ralf, it was not me who chased them back to their barracks.

@Pato,

Did Kerry serve in Vietnam?

Maybe I should try a google search.

Maybe it was the french he served with in Vietnam.

Klink,

Back then as you like to call it, the US has the same allies today as it had then with the excpetion of Canada. So there has been no change in the quality of leadership. If any thing there has been a change in the term ally and what that means.

It is obvious it means something different in German than it does in English

Surely your study of history told you that.

france was an occuppied nation.

I will like to know what is the right office I need to talk to get my fathe´s nationality (german) and how can I be help, please, if you can tell me.
mvonjezierski@yahoo.com

Hi everyone.
Here in Germany my informations are also limtited und confusing.
I can't really imagine a supermarket selling guns which is somehow scaring me :). I think of children and criminals beeing able to get guns more easily.. But I respect the idea of having the people armed to secure freedom. However until the 70s gun controle wasn't that sharp and i know that some student offered a 9mm to someone else at my school(he didn't take it to school), as some local clubs, like the lokal tennis-club were cleaning up the environement they also found apart from litter a handgun. In my village there is also a gun-club offering a pistol- and a rifle range to fire on targets, a friend of mine showed me the guns, including handguns of his father(which he legally owns) when his parents were out. I saw a video of a friend of a friend beeing a gun-nut firering american, german, russian WW2 rifles and modern submachineguns(mp5) he also got a Handgrenade. And if you really want a gun whatever the law sais you can get it: I heard of someone buying modified guns for fiering blank ammunition only(free at 18 years), buying barrels in Switzerland and making a shotgun out of it. Or just drive to our nice,friendly eastern, former soviet bloc nighbours and buy a AK47 for for a douzen of euros... My neighbour told me that when he was a teenager he went up to the woods and opened an old nazi-bunker finding a Machinegun(same, with reduced firepower to save ammunition and modified to fire the nato caliber is still beeing used by our present army) and shooting with it. Some town near to mine had a significant high rate of cancer due to radiation from a mobile phone antenna, some day it was blown up...
So you see we have guns here and we have gangsters, to legally own one the athorities will ask you why, so you need a reason like beeing a hunter or shooting for sports, you musn't be a known criminal or you get it illegally. I myself am not armed and i don't know why i should be; shooting of course rulez and is fun.

I don't know what our polititians are up to. Unfortunately people got the feeling that they can't help the facts anyway(not that bad as it sounds like but it's a shame).
Someone came up with Lindie England and my opinion is that "pointing on the penis and laughing" isn't that bad and I didn't see much more on the pictures(which doesn't makes me sure that she didn't do more) but the effect throughout the wolrd is much bigger and still I don't want to be one of those Iraqies.
Our lack of assistance in Iraq sure was part of the election campaign, thers no doubt about it but don't forget that our army is right now participating in 10 missions around the globe working at it's limits. So we are still at places like Kosovo where american troops are already gone as far as I know which would likely develop to new civil wars without our presence. And our Constitution DENIES participation in wars which aren't about defending our soil. So some people really thought about sueing our government at the supreme court for allowing american aircraft from Iraq(with wounded troops) to fly in our territory(of course didn't happen, but we sent medecal evacuation plans). Our Army itself was built up after WW2 ONLY to defend our soil from the Soviets, therfor we did not buy transport capacities for beeing able to start a war to make the Russions believe that we arent a danger to them, our army was in contact with the russian to tell them if we were making a training.
In the US people decide if they want to join the army, here i get a Letter of a governement organisation which sounds like translated "Army spare parts center" telling me that I should,if I finished school go see a doctor and go army or jail(it is possible refuse to go to army and work for example for the red cross) but in fact you are forced to do so. So there would have been many soldiers who couldn't tell the reasons for this war and what this has to do with Germany nor why they should go there or if this is covered by our constitution.
In fact the mission of our army has changed, so the "reasons" by our governement for joining the fight in Kosovo were all "helping other people to have a democracy and stopp crimes" I recently saw a polititian on TV really shocking(!) me by saying that a goal of our army is to "secure resources for the german industries throughout the world". I feel ashamed:are we right now killing innocent people for getting gasoline? while new inventions(we got a man here transforming garbage from households into diesel fuel directly fitting to 50% of our cars, running one facilite not in Germany but in Mexico!!) aren't supported probably to the interest of some elites?
In the begiining of our new army a hell lot of people attacked and injured soldiers and demonstrated against the army foundation under the slogan "never ever again war from german soil!(you fucking bloody criminals!)" in a bombed to ash country with a population pyramid beeing deformed by the lost of many men. And somehow they are right and I couldn't come up with a reason to them like hey there is a country we dicouvered 3 weeks ago, it has weappons of mass destruction as you see on this satellite photo, we also have the acquittances here...
So we are in Afghanistan responsible for quite a big part of the country, you know all helping the people there building up stuff and so on, the Iraqi policemen are beeing trained by Germany(I saw a very funny scene on TV showing German soldiers teaching Afghani policemen running with the pulled gun into the rumble) and what most Germans aren't aware of is that German special forces are participating in terrorist hunting. some of them are in Iraq to assist the embassady there.. Like the KSK (commando special forces), there was a American officer showing a picture of soldiers in black uniforms at midday in the desert to German reporters saying proudly "only the navi seals are better". the members of the KSK never show their faces in the public nor their names and if one of them dies noone gets to know it. So I didn't see a coffin of them up to now. The German gouvernement was angry with the US military for telling the reporters about it while the US-army couldn't understand this reaction.

About the stereotypes: our school has a partnership program with a school in Arkansas and one student was asked if we would have cars in Germany, quite funny!
Some student was demonstrated a dishwashing mashine with the words like "see, the dishes are put in dirty and are coming out clean"
of course this is very seldom and the worst case is funny. they've been here while the football world cup and looked like they enjoied it here.

I appreciate you beeing interested. And know that I respect you and like you whatever stupid media or polititians say, in the end what counts is every singe one and i believe that there are nice good friendly smart people in EVERY SINGLE country! Keep on beeing interested and criticising as it is important to keep the things moving, people who say STFU your not patriot-like or something don't get it. It is really importing. Imagine you're on the wrong course with your ship and noone is telling you.
I know that in my country is shit happening also right now and I appreciate anyone trying to help the facts as we need them and if it's just to start a controversy whatever my personnel opinion is.
Sometimes I see people saying shut up you yourself did thing X wrong instead of realizing the chance to alter it to the better and profit of someone investing time into studying it and trying to help you.

Hi all!
Something to do with the topic:

The case case Jakob von Metzler

In september 27 2002 the 11 years old Jakob von Metzler was abducted by the Student of law Magnus Gäfgen. In return for the boy Gräfgen Demanded 1000.000.000 EUR by the childs Family, which he got septemb 29 but the police recognized him and arrested him after he didn't return to his victim for hours but went on a shopping tour.

While the interrogation Gräfgen confessed that he abducted the child but refused to tell the whereabout of the boy or his condition. Several times the suspect told the police sh*t and several therefor launched police operations to find Metzler failed. Also bounties for hints had negative effect.
4 days after the crime the Vice Chief of Police Wolfgang Daschner who Believed in the chance of rescuing the child, after he went through all of his legal methods of interrogation having a suspect having confessed as beeing a student of law knowing about the finiteness of the policeman told him that there is "an(non-existent) expert in torture on his way with in a helicopter who's going to make him feel pain like he never did before but without damaging his body"
So Gräfgen told the whereabout of Jakob von Metzler.-But it was too late An immediately launched police rescue operation did find the child dead.
Daschner made a file memorendom describing his criminal use of force to save the child.

As result public prosecution department refused to accept all of Gräfgen's confessions. After a new investigation Gäfgen was found guilty of murder and sentences him to a lifelong term of imprisonement (in Germany law limits it to 3 to 15 years(!!!!) because death sentence is abolished)
In the lawsuit against Daschner, he was found guilty and has to pay 90 times 120 euros and additionally 60 times 60 euros(split up to make sure he has enough money to buy something to eat for his family)
The reasons for the judgement by the court are:
-The judgment was the lowest possible (general 5 years imprisonment) for this kind of crime.
-Such a violation of the most fundamental human right cannot be justified by any reason or situation.
-the singulatity of this case doesn't exist, and pointed out the comparison with the RAF terrorists in the 70s
-mitigating is that he as the leading investigator(and father) was in a escapeless dilemma and he himself was the one who, by the help of his file memorendum made it possible at all to start this poll.

The police department launched an disciplinary procedure against him and Daschnerwas suspends from his work as the vice Chief of Police by the time he made the file memorendum.
Daschner: "I was in a unexampled and heavy dilemma deciding between the rights of the child or the suspect, after I went through all my possibilities I decided for the child"

Gäfgen's lawyer is unsatisfied with the judgement for the crime which he calls:"the biggest violation of Human Rights within the Federal Republic of Germany ever"
Gäfgen, check out his Website! http://www.magnus-gaefgen.de/ finished his examen of law in prison and demands at least 10.000 Euros as smart-money and wants the state to pay his doctors bills.
Gäfgen complains about the conditions in the prison in an interview in the "Tagesspiegel": "the care of pastors and psychologist is not enough. In situations very allone in the cell you're coming closer to God"(he really said it!) He is at the highest security-level but still he is afraid "Due to the media everyone here knows who I am and what I did"

Right now Gäfgen sues Daschner and the Federal Republic of Germany at the international(whole world without USA) Court of Human Rights. His lawsuit passed the first predecisions to his benefit.


So you see that Germany cannot meet the very high standard of the US. I am sorry if your high opinions of our, of course 2.-class-democracy have been damaged. But the truth is hard: we have Human rights violations in Germany as the example clearly shows.

About at the same time the immaterial facts of a probably small snapshot of what happened in Abu Ghraib for years was made public making our minister of Defense say the words "Ein deutscher Soldat foltert Niemanden", "A German Soldier does not torture anybody"
Which is a shame because at the same time murderes(or one murderer) are threatened with torture in Germany. Which is of course controversial. So a german Rock and Roll band was singing "...because you(German soldiers) don't come as a Soldat but only as a paid killer for the interest of the US"
[The band "Landser"(means Soldat) was finally arrested and send to prison for up to 3 years and four months(singer) for singing songs like the one the abstract was taken from. it was very hard for the police to get them because the CDs were manufactured abroad, also in the US]

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