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1. wären die untersuchungen mit der gleichen intensität vorangetrieben worden, wenn cbs die bilder nicht veröffentlicht hätte? mir scheint, fehler werden erst dann zugegeben, wenn sie nicht mehr geleugnet werden können. diese verfahrensweise ist der amerikanischen regierung nicht eigen, sie ist weltweit verbreitet (natürlich auch in d.). die diskutierten verhörpraktiken werden nicht erst seit januar angewandt, sie wurden bereits in afghanistan durchgeführt. besonders langsam wird auch die angelegenheit um guantanamo bearbeitet. der oberste gerichtshof beschäftigt sich erst jetzt, nach jahren, damit.

2. was hat rice hier anderes getan, als "brutalst mögliche aufklärung" zu fordern und Aussagen von sich zu geben, die für jeden Rechtssaat Selbstverständlichkeiten darstellen? Worin unterscheidet sich ihre sprache von derjenigen der Politiker hierzulande?

3. was sagt amnesty international zu den neuen, präzisierten verhörmethoden?

David,

"That is what pleases me about the Americans: the straight forward style, the admission of mistakes, and the willingness to change."

Keep in mind that the investigations started in January, but by April CACI, the subcontractor responsible for some of those abuses, had not received any orders to change their methods. At least one of the officers whose termination was recommended by the Taguba report in January was still on the job in April. I can understand that it takes some time to investigate the accused etc., but surely ordering the activities to cease and taking the accused off the "job" should happen around the same time as the investigation starts, or at least shortly thereafter, not 4-5 months later, after pictures have been leaked to the press.

So Kudos to the Americans for their "straight forward style" and "admission of mistakes", but as for "willingness to change", like true politicians the Bush administration didn't choose that route until there was no other alternative.

Human:

The time-line is not unreasonable: In the United States, unless a criminal is caught in the act, the prosecutor must argue his case in front of a grand jury. The purpose of the grand jury is to ensure that the Government has evidence that reaches the standard of "probable cause," before an accused is arrested and put on trial. This process can be lengthy....note the current Kobe Bryant trial.

The Military conducts the equivalent of a grand jury investigation under Article 33 of the United States Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).

In addition to the Article 33 investigation and hearings against the accused, General Sanchez initiated an Article 15-6 Investigation. This is a special investigation that is handled usually by a field grade officer or above. In the present case Major General Tuguba was the investigating officer. The purpose of such an investigation is to determine such serious non-criminal issues....such as the effectiveness of the leadership of the Military Police, or the following of procedures by the soldiers in charge of guarding the prisoners.

Also, remember that all of this is happening while a war is being fought.

CBS has two agendas: First, television rateings. 2nd, the election of John Kerry. Kerry is a poor presidential candidate and the only way he can beat Bush is for his surrogates in the press to come up with weekly scandals. First Richard Clark, now naked Iraqies.

@George M.:

I wasn't talking about the speed of the actual court case, but about the fact that after Taguba's investigation, some of these people were left to continue their jobs - see CACI and Steve Stephanowicz. I do consider it an unreasonable timeline for someone recommended for termination due to human rights violations to still be performing the same job 4-5 months later. Just a f'rinstance: if an employee in a supermarket is accused of stealing, you don't let him keep working in the supermarket while the matter works its way through the courts.

"Also, remember that all of this is happening while a war is being fought."

Meaning what? That that should prevent them from following Taguba's recommendations?

Do you think the prison-abuse scandal is completely not worth mentioning, investigating or pursuing, other than in the context of presidential election politics? So if there were no election this year, it should not be dealt with at all? If so, why?

@George M:

Just out of curiosity, which war are you referring to in your post?

Comrade human,

Good afternoon.

See how important it is to define terms. I had asked you to define what urgently meant. So far you have failed to do that. I suggest you call your dearly beloved leader. I am sure he will give you guidance.

While I disagree with your assessment of the changes occuring here, that really is not important. It your own personal assessment which matters most. However, I wonder how much of that is tainted by your hatred of President Bush.

Remember Comrade human,

Bush is Evil

Take us all to the promise land... follow our dearly beloved leader.

Comrade human,

War You know where people die, bad things happen. It is not like shopping in a supermarket.

However if you think the are the same then you need more guidance in the "German Way"

Of course, I would not expect you to understand war at all. It is concept that is foreign to you. All wars are bad. Espeically the ones you lose.

So you lack of understanding is more of a product of your culture.

Remember.....Comrade...

Bush is Evil.

Comrade human,

War You know where people die, bad things happen. It is not like shopping in a supermarket.

However if you think they are the same then you need more guidance in the "German Way"

Of course, I would not expect you to understand war at all. It is concept that is foreign to you. All wars are bad. Espeically the ones you lose.

So you lack of understanding is more of a product of your culture.

Remember.....Comrade...

Bush is Evil.

@Joe:

You can find 'urgently' in the dictionary. I have nothing to add to that definition.

Your tedious, repetitive attempts at satire are tiresome, to say the least, and I am no longer going to read through the same dumb slogans just to see if you've actually buried a point somewhere in there.

"While I disagree with your assessment of the changes occuring here, that really is not important. It your own personal assessment which matters most. However, I wonder how much of that is tainted by your hatred of President Bush."

Yes, I've noticed that about you. You don't care about the issues at hand, you're more concerned about whether the other person is either an unquestioning Bush supporter or someone who thinks "Bush is Evil" - which you seem to think are the only two options.

While you may think that all Bush-hatred is irrational and that all criticism of Bush falls under irrational Bush-hatred, it doesn't occur to you that seeing irrational Bush-hatred all around you (when there is plenty of legitimate criticism that can be leveled at Bush) is no less irrational.

In future I will simply ignore any of your posts that contain the same old meaningless nonsense lines that you keep spewing. If you'd like to make a point, all you have to do is simply make that point and drop the nonsense pasted before and after it.

Enjoy.

Comrade human

What issues. The ones you choose or the real issues. You do not know what the issues are. The issues to you are those things printed in the Big fatherland Media.

I am glad you find my comments tiresome. They now equal your own, your's and your dearly beloved leader and those of leftist like Comrade Klink.

The reason I asked for a definition is because you used that word and I wanted to know what it meant. You and the euro's use words but they have different meanings.

Remember Comrade.......

Bush is Evil.

Comrade human,

Your comment on jobs where part of the topic.

Please

This might work with your leftist friends. Klink does it all the time.

I suggest you go to the supermarket Comrade.

Remember

Shopping can be dangerous but not if you follow the "German Way".

Bush is Evil.

@Joe:

I don't know what makes you conclude that I live in Germany or that Schröder is my dearly beloved leader. I get my news from a wide variety of sources, not just (actually, hardly at all) from the "Big fatherland Media".

Just wanted to straighten that out. And from now on I will ignore any of your posts that contain the same old meaningless nonsense lines that you keep spewing. If you'd like to make a point, all you have to do is simply make that point and drop the nonsense pasted before and after it.

@George,

Well there is good news here and bad news.

Those who have been charged under the UCMJ could have trial in a Germany court and would probably be set free.

The bad news are they are Americans so they would be considered guilty before the actual trial.

This is the application of a sliding scale of morale outrage that seems to unique to Europe.

*g*

David,

I'd like to add, that Condi Rice had an outstanding, impressing appearence at the nation -wide, most seen tv news talk show "christiansen" last night. For about 40 minutes she answered even stupid questions with patience and passion.

Of course she strongly opposed what happend in that former saddam torture prison, she told us how she felt ashamed after learning about the pictures. She explained what has been undertaken to investigate the matter and as a result was is going to change.
Okay, no big news at all, but still convincing and trustworthy.


@joe
Conti told us again, why Germanys contribution to the war against terror is so important and crucial as well.
Joe, don't ask me, what contribution this might be, ask condi,
don't tell me, she said that being polite, diplomatic or/and paid to do so, of course she is!

She mentioned the sharing of quality intelligence data, germanys contribution to afghanistan, still second largest troops deployed and I'm sure she even had the special forces in mind which fought along with US and brits special forces in tora bora and other places.
Joe did you know, that iraqi police is trained by german police in kuwait? Of course you know!

Joe,
by the way, you know I always enjoy your postings, but lately I'm getting concerned about your comments. Are you okay? What is the

comrade-bush-is-evil-going-the-german-way-talk

all about, did I miss somethink while beeing gone?
I'm confused, giving you the information I lack any sense of humor, like every german, I don't have a clue.
Oh tonight I tune in to Rush again. I'm looking forward to what he has to say about Kerrys weekend

Joe, will you be okay, should I be concerned?

Comrade human

I note with interest how you failed to address how your comment on jobs had anything to do with the topic that was being discussed at the time.

This is very effective if you do not have an answer. It is much in keeping with the "German Way" It is something that Comrade Klink and the left do all the time. Ignore the issue, talk about something else.

Part of the "German Way" is to ignore the problem. It is what they are doing with their own problems of employment except to pass laws telling businesses to hire more people. I would think these might have more of a job killing effect but who am I .......right....

So I guess there was no linkage......it was just another issue that was important to you.

Long live Comrade human.

@Joe:

"I note with interest how you failed to address how your comment on jobs had anything to do with the topic that was being discussed at the time."

Yes, I was ignoring that post.

How did my comment on Jobs have anything to do with the topic discussed at the time? Go back and look at it. David says in his post that Schröder should "look at" (and presumably emulate) Bush's economic policy. I pointed out that that was not something Germany could afford (and even the US is having a hard time affording). Which then connected to the number of jobs created by Bush's economic policy.

Is that linkage so hard to understand? Economic policy --> jobs?

@Joe

oh dear, now I'm really concerned.

"Well there is good news here and bad news.

Those who have been charged under the UCMJ could have trial in a Germany court and would probably be set free.

The bad news are they are Americans so they would be considered guilty before the actual trial.

This is the application of a sliding scale of morale outrage that seems to unique to Europe."

It must be satire, at least a humorous posting, no it must be satire, yes definetly

Remember OJ would have been convicted and sentenced to prison in a german court, not because of his skin color and not because he is american, simlpy because of the mountains of evidence provided to the judges.

Evidence Ashcroft is holding back in the 9/11 Hamburg cases.

Posting 0635 by Ralf - blame and dump me

@anonymous at 6:35:

I've come to the conclusion that Joe is either a troll or a disgruntled left-winger satirizing and making fun of the mentality of a US right-winger. Ralf's comments above make me believe that he used to be more rational, so maybe he'll come around again.

Ralf,

I am fine thank you. Hope you are making a smooth adjustment from merry holidays to normal routine days.

Yes I know what condi said and I know what her mission is. I think it is a bit shameful but such is the political season. The SPD calls Bush Hitler and Condi comes to Berlin to play nice. Both are equally disgusting, but what can I say.

Remember too we also got quality intelligence from the German intelligences agencies about Saddam having WMD’s too. They believed it just as much as we did. As the US chose to do something about these WMD's which it considered to be in its own national interested has all but been forgotten. We are more concerned about not finding them but again here the US differs again with our European friends. Our concern is where they might be now. The anthrax that Saddam had and that was documented by the UN in 1998 has never been accounted for. In dried form this would fit nicely in a German beer truck. This amount of anthrax is almost enough to kill every man woman and child in Germany. The Europeans on the other hand view this for their morale justification for not supporting the US.

As for my posts. I have found that to make logical reasoned posts founded in reality does not lend itself to getting the same comments as a reply. I have to deal with reality as those who post here believe it to be. Therefore I take the position of most Germans who post here. In little bitty words Bush is Evil. What most poster want is not a discussion on issues to make their political point and to feel they are right in their position. A good example of this is to read the exchange I have had with human over the past few days. human's topic was jobs. The point she wanted to make was Bush lied.

You will note to those who do, I am more than willing to have a reasonable discussion. For the rest I threat them, as they deserve to be treated only from time to time pointing out their own hypocrisy. Most are to consumed to even notice, which is understandable when standing on a mountain of both morale outrage and morale superiority/.

Your Chancellor is the one who used the term the “German Way.” So far I am not sure what that means. No one has been able to explain that. So I have to assume that this “German Way” is what he, the German government and Germany are doing. Which of course makes a lot of sense to me but I am sure there is a flaw some where in my logic.


*g*


Comrade human,

Is it possible to be both? Does this now qualify me to become a true eurolander?

Remember ........Comrade.....

Bush is Evil

He cannot keep a time line.

He shops in supermarkets.

I've come to the conclusion that naming oneself "more human than human" reveals a level of self-absorbtion that would shield one from any event from outside the prism one sees the world through.

Tell me: what should we do - I mean it - what useful advice do you have for the US - can you enlighten us? what reliable course of action will remove vulgar, terror-mongering, population killing regimes from the near east? I'm sure it's just a matter of time until your brilliance and great experience that comes with age is revealed to the rest of humanity!

@human,

Good there is linkage.

Now what is the linkage between the jobs being created in the US and those being created in Germany and any linkage of a time line.

BTW there was a report this weekend that stated should job growth continue in the US at the same rate that is now occuring at the end of President Bush's term (meaning in Jan 05) There will be more jobs in the US than when he took office.

I know you realize jobs are a tailing indicator which is why some in Germany are being much to quick to fault Berlin with the policy changes that have taken place but have not been digested by the market. Personally, I believe they are too little but also it would seem that to do more at this time is too hard.

The problem of them being too hard and to do nothing means that Germany is losing ground. This is not good for anyone be they German or American.

Comrade human,

Since you chose to ignore facts, logic, reason and reality ....it would not surprise me at all that you would also ignore my posts. To live in an insular world is something that only euro's can do. It is the promise land.

Remember.......Comrade

Bush is Evil.

Comrade,

You have a lot of faith in the German court system. Germany has a long history of courts and how they function.

This too is part of the "German Way".

Comrade

Bush is Evil

Praise the German courts!

@Joe2

Well what ever we are doing is wrong. We both know that. While none in Europe seem to know what should be done other than fighting "root causes" which they are implementing by sending a trade mission to Syria, the answer is to do nothing but wait.

To Europe war is optional. I would say that is true with all wars in fact. But some times it becomes necessary to have then none the less.

I will be interested to see what answers you get. I am sure none of them will be at all grounded in reality.

*g*

@Joe
those of leftist like Comrade Klink.

False.

The SPD calls Bush Hitler

False.

They believed it just as much as we did.

False.

@Joe:

Are you simply not willing to engage in any kind of reasonable discussion with anybody other than unquestioning Bush loyalists? Is your only response to any such criticism a regression into playground-level sarcasm?

"The SPD calls Bush Hitler"

When did they do that? Link?

"We are more concerned about not finding them but again here the US differs again with our European friends. Our concern is where they [the WMD] might be now."

How do you know that this is of no concern to German intelligence right now?

" I have to deal with reality as those who post here believe it to be. Therefore I take the position of most Germans who post here. In little bitty words Bush is Evil."

Can you point me to which of my posts made you believe that I thought Bush was evil, that I am a socialist, that I am a fan of Schröder whom I see as my dearly beloved leader? You simply went off on a nonsensical generalization, as you are doing here.

"A good example of this is to read the exchange I have had with human over the past few days. human's topic was jobs. The point she wanted to make was Bush lied."

No, that is not the point I wanted to make, nor is it the point I made. One of the points I made is simply that Bush was mistaken in his projections of the jobs that would be created by his tax cuts. I don't think he lied intentionally, nor did I say that he did lie.

"You will note to those who do, I am more than willing to have a reasonable discussion."

Looking back over your posts from the last few days, it's pretty clear that the exact opposite of that is true. You take a reasonable discussion and respond with nonsense, the web equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalala".

"Your Chancellor is the one who used the term the “German Way.” So far I am not sure what that means. No one has been able to explain that."

Wouldn't it have been fun to find out what it meant before pasting it in post after annoying, senseless post?

To Europe, war is indeed optional, because they have the anglosphere to make their environment safe. It's a nice place to sit if all one wants to do is attract attention to ones' various notions of what is decent and what isn't.
Concider the types of issues that they get worked up about - they are running out of things in life to complain about that they think that they can change.
The term I've heard for it lately is "recreational compassion." It's a clear contrast to those outside of that media driven knockaround who know nonsense pressure campaigns and news stories from those things that matter in life.

A little self promotion for my US - we are nation whose population is growing, we are young and have lot to look forward to - we are being serious about the world's future because we have a huge stake in the world's population being happy, healthy, and prosperous - but NOT in that whiny "send more free stuff to ease my consciience" kind of way -
most of Europe seems to reveal the attitude of exactly the opposite.

@Joe2
As usual, the focus of discussion in the press and on here is NOT the enemy. Whether President Bush is faultless, whether there was a good enough plan, etc. is interesting, but the real discussion should be about the forces of pan-arabism and the international Islamic fundamentalist war on the infidels.

The Bush administration and the media are so busy arguing about trivia that we are not getting the message out about what the war is all about. Or even that we are in a long-term struggle to crush the cancer, which has spread from the Middle East to the rest of the world.

So we focus on the unimportant ignoring the important.

There are days when I hope Kerry wins. I think the results of that will be beyond any of our abilities to comprehend.

The left is in the throes of the cognitive dissonance resulting from the suspicion that their agenda, if implemented, would spell national suicide, and that the Republicans and Bush are right in their vigorous prosecution of the WOT, the thought of which makes them absolutely insane

I continue to believe that the antiwar movement has little to do with "hating America" and everything to do with the outcome of the 2000 election (and all the baggage that goes with THAT). One of the best examples of this is the ongoing hyper politicization of the prison scandal.

Talk about scenarios! Contemplate a Kerry presidency for a moment. Given the war, and the composition of congress and the politics of the red-state "other" half the populace, it would make the Clinton presidency look like a honeymoon. Given the treatment that Bush has received, just imagine the "pay-back" factor under Kerry.
Of course, Kerry would be a one term President and the last Democrat for maybe 4 election cycles. The Republicans would become even more the dominant party. At that point in time, Europe would have some extremely difficult choices to make assuming that they had not already made some accommodation with the radical Isalmist.


This is going to get really interesting for a while but then maybe America will sober up and then maybe not.

I got a call from a very close friend in Germany today who will be visiting me soon. She thinks Bush is awful. She spent the weekend reading about Kerry and thinks he is more than a twit and would be even worse. I had been telling her that since it became apparent he would be the guy for the democrats. She refused to accept that. Now she has and it just scares the hell out of her that Kerry could win.


So if you are ABB'er it might matter if you are an American. If you are a European ABB'er it does not matter at all but in reality it should matter even more. Klink is probably the best example here of an ABB'er but human is close.

*g*

Comrade Klink,

Gee, you do not believe the Big fatherland Media. So the reporter who reported an off the record remark was wrong.

Your dearly beloved leader made an apology for something that did not happen. Is this too the “German Way”?

I know this was all done in the spirit of allies being allies. I think that is the term you like to use. . allies.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/news_alert_092002_illegalbush.html

Remember Comrade…….

Long live our might Left

The dearly beloved leader is diplomatic genius.

Bush is Evil

@Comrade human,

Please note Comrade Klink's comment you can not be concerned about something that you never believed that existed.

This however is a prefect expamle of how disfuctional eurolanders can be.

Remember ......

Bush is Evil

There were never any WMD's. Comrade Klink assures America.

Joe,

there is no reason to joke about the german court system:

Joe:"You have a lot of faith in the German court system. Germany has a long history of courts and how they function."

You bet it does!

Our court system didn't start in 1945, as you know.

Now here is a joke American prof. Peter Hay told me and his class: "When you are the accused, and you know you killed someone, you better pray you'll get trialed in the US court system, but when you know you didn't commit a crime, you better pray to face a German court."
I think it summs it up pretty well, although I confess this joke deals only with criminal cases.

Remember O.J., (I confess Shapiro and Cochran - I don't see there is even a case- were brilliant, a real highlight)


"This too is part of the "German Way".(Joe)"

I still don't get it, thank God Schroeder is not able to change a good working jurical system.

By the way, the so called "German way", there is no such think, was trashed right away by the liberals and conservatives, when Schroeder first mentioned it.

"Comrade"

Come on, Joe its me!


Joe:"Praise the German courts!"

Amen

Joe's false claim was: "The SPD calls Bush Hitler"

If Joe's claim had been true, there would have been neither an apology nor the woman in question no longer as minister, all already almost two years ago. (And never mind that not even she called him this directly)

Catch you all later. Have to go be a captialist for a while.

Shall rejoin you later.

Have a nice eveing. Be safe. Enjoy

Remember.....

Be careful in supermarket you might be hit by a falling display

*g*

Let's see, Joe:

"As for my posts. I have found that to make logical reasoned posts founded in reality does not lend itself to getting the same comments as a reply. I have to deal with reality as those who post here believe it to be. Therefore I take the position of most Germans who post here. In little bitty words Bush is Evil."

So we have this question of mine:

""We are more concerned about not finding them but again here the US differs again with our European friends. Our concern is where they [the WMD] might be now."

How do you know that this is of no concern to German intelligence right now?"

To which you respond:

"Please note Comrade Klink's comment you can not be concerned about something that you never believed that existed.

This however is a prefect expamle of how disfuctional eurolanders can be.

Remember ......

Bush is Evil

There were never any WMD's. Comrade Klink assures America."

You're not even willing to back up your own claims, instead fleeing into infantile prattle. And then you try to boast about how you lower yourself to other people's levels...

... and what's all this about shopping?

@Joe:

thanks for the link, which serves nicely to confirm that the SPD did not call Bush Hitler:

Daeubler-Gmelin, while speaking about U.S. threats toward Iraq, told a small group of labor members: "Bush wants to distract attention from his domestic problems. That's a popular method. Even Hitler did that."

Spot the difference? She says Bush wants to distract attention from his domestic problems, a method that even Hitler used. That is nowhere near the same as calling Bush Hitler.

@Joe:

"BTW there was a report this weekend that stated should job growth continue in the US at the same rate that is now occuring at the end of President Bush's term (meaning in Jan 05) There will be more jobs in the US than when he took office."

Could you find a link for this? Am I right in guessing it's based on the Household Survey?

"Daeubler-Gmelin, while speaking about U.S. threats toward Iraq, told a small group of labor members: "Bush wants to distract attention from his domestic problems. That's a popular method. Even Hitler did that.""

I understand, so Hitler started WW2 to distract the German people from domestic problems. That's a new one to me. For some reason that "quote" is different then the one I had read on deutschewelle some time ago. Regardless, she did compare Bush to Hitler (otherwise why bring up Hitler in the first place?) which one can read between the lines if one wants to. But she claimed she didn't say anything like that, despite saying it in front of a room full of people right?

@SleepyInSeattle: I don't think she specified WW2.

What Herta D.-G. said was "Das hat auch Hitler so gemacht". This is a direct comparison of Bush´s policy with Hitler´s policy.

It is also idiotic from every other point of view: Bush didn´t have to distract anyone from domestic problems; he was doing extremely well at the time and must have been fully aware of the risk he was taking with the war. As someone else noted here, it is also not true with regard to Hitler. One thing is certain: our federal minister of justice, a law professor, was as dumb as a lamppost.

Here´s the link where she is called a liar by the journalist who was there:
link

I guess it is not fair to say the SPD calls Bush Hitler. However, I met enough party members in my life to be certain that they´d like to, and probably do so privately. I cannot prove it, but then we are not in court.

@more_human_than_human

In other words the SPD Justice Minister didn't justify her comparison in any way and so therefore it was just a cheap shot out of her ass. But OK, go on believing (and defending) that there's no possible way she compared Bush to Hitler, it's just impossible. I mean, it's normal to bring up Hitler when speaking about people (and NOT make a comparison of course). My wife wants a dog, I told her that "just like you, Hitler liked dogs!" because it makes sense bringing up Hitler when not actually making comparisons (which of course Däubler-Gmelin most definitely didn't do!). But whatever she said what she said, it's old news (unlike Rumsfeld's "Old Europe"), just don't try to tell me she didn't mean what she clearly implied.

@Ralf,

You mean their is no German history before 1945?

Comrade’s human and Klink,

So it is prefect acceptable to link Bush to Hitler. It makes prefect sense to your logical and complex mines that any German should even infer a linkage between any American President and Hitler. That should be acceptable to Americans. You know so little of who we are then. You also seem to fail to appreciate how funny I found this entire incident about distraction to be. It was your dearly beloved leader who was fighting for his political life at the time. He is the one who bought up Iraq and the war. I think the other option was jobs, a favorite topic of Comrade human. Oops I misspoke Comrade human only is concerted about jobs in America. There were no comments made by the Bush Administration about Germany’s participation in the war at all. In fact, there was a concerted effort to insure none were made. There was also some junior SPD lackey who made the same comment and was promptly fires.

It was never disproved that the comment was not made. What was said is that your dearly beloved leader accepted the minister’s explanation. The spin that was put on it was that it was not a direct comparison but and indirect comparison. Had this spin not been placed on it today there would be fewer Americans in Germany than there are currently. There will also be fewer Americans in Germany in the future than there are today. This would only have speeded up the process.

But as this escapes you, so be it.

OK, we will forever forward use this concept of linkage. We link things and say it even if they never happened. I accept that as a ground rule when discussing issues with my good Comrades.

It is interesting still why an apology was issued for something that did not occur. Why one of the bright stars of the new “German Way” resigned? One that I am lead to believe that was being considered as a candidate for an important post in that much beloved institution of justice called the ICC.

So Germans say things they do not mean for events that did not happened and ministers and careers are ended over nothing. This is not at all logical but I guess it is the “German Way.”

As you eurolanders love to deal in false perceptions about America and President Bush, it is obvious that we from time to time do that too. Americans believe the Hitler comparison was made. It does not matter if you chose to believe it was made or not. That is of course your right. It would seem at the time there was some controversy within in Big fatherland Media as to just what the facts were.

It is of course equally our right to believe otherwise. If you want us to accept the word of dearly beloved leader, then why should we? We and I mean Americans who even know who he is, and that is not that large of a percentage find nothing honorable about him at all. You however to chose to believe almost everything he says. Of course, that too is understandable as he is after all the dearly beloved leader.It plays well with his base to be anti-Bush. It does however come across as anti-American. Another perception we have.

It is equally our right to believe that WMD’s in the hands of Saddam were a threat not only to the US but to the world in general. It was your right to believe as you do that he did not possess these. In this case, I hope your beliefs are correct. And if you now take the position that the government of the dearly beloved leader did not believe this, then he was the only leader of a Western nation who did. He is brilliant. See I knew those poll numbers were another Bush lie.

As for it happening also two years ago, just what does that mean? Are you implying that it is no longer important? I seem to recall you bring up thing, which also happened more than 2 years ago and wallowing in your self-righteousness about them. But of course, I forgot this is only reserved for good Comrades and members of the left.


http://www.cdu.de/presse/archiv-2002/pressestimmen200902.htm

Long live he dearly beloved leader.
Bush is Evil.

Comrade Klink and Comrade human,

We Americans and some of the Germans here seem to have this huge perception problem when it comes to something that did not happened. In this case Bush Hitler.

See this just proves the point that Comrade Klink has made since the day I made my very first post, that Americans like their President are just stupid. We can not deal with complex issues.

Comrades…….shall we ……of course

Bush is Evil
Americans are stupid.
Follow the “German Way”


@joe

"This is the application of a sliding scale of morale outrage that seems to unique to Europe."

"The Europeans on the other hand view this for their morale justification for not supporting the US."

"While none in Europe seem to know what should be done other than fighting "root causes" which they are implementing by sending a trade mission to Syria, the answer is to do nothing but wait."

Joe, I am sick, sick, sick of your talking about "Europe" in this general fashion. Do you not realise that you are spitting in the face of the brave Polish, Portugese, Danish, Romanian, Italian, Dutch, Bulgarian, Norwegian, Latvian, Moldovian, Hungarian, Lithuanian and Estonian soldiers who risk their life in Iraq - while your contribution to protecting our freedom appears to consist in posting the same old corny jokes over and over again on some obscure German website (cut the "comrade" crap, will you!?).

How could you expect any respect for the American troops in Iraq and not pay the same respect to others who deserve it although their contribution may not be on the same scale? Arrogance is the word which comes to mind.

You seem to have a problem with Germany - that's fine. So do I, and more than just one. But "Europe" is somewhat more complicated than this. Slovenia is not Slovakia, you know. And Slovakia is not Romania and Romania is not Poland and Poland is not Germany. Rumsfeld had a point when he made the distinction between "old" and "new" Europe. It is far more complicated than this, of course, but try and start from there.

@tiki@tiki,

You are right. I am wrong. And for this I do owe you and all those people an apology.

For all of you who are Polish, Portuguese, Danish, Romanian, Italian, Dutch, Bulgarian, Norwegian, Latvian, Moldavian, Hungarian, Lithuanian, and Estonian, I hope you will accept my sincerest apology.

Tiki, thank you for pointing this out to me. I needed that because you are right and I am wrong. The US has thought of the Poles especially as allies as our nations fought together in World War 2. For those nations of Western Europe who have stood by us in this war, I am especially grateful and thankful. This has taken great political courage of their leaders, sacrifice of their citizens and the putting in harms way their most precious treasures.

For Romania, Bulgaria, Latvian, Moldavian, Hungary, Lithuanian, and Estonian, I am especially happy for final after all these years they are free. Their understanding of freedom probably exceeds even my own. I know they realize that freedom is not free. Most people who have lost their freedom seem to understand this more than those who have not.

Their courage in some ways is an embracement to me It surely seems in many ways we failed them at the end of World War 2. Their freedom has been a long time in coming. In fact, too long.

You are also correct in that I have a problem with Germany as well as the frogs, and Belgium and Luxemburg too. I will toss in the Austrians with the Germans. I am not sure about Spain. My problem is that france has proven herself to be an enemy of the US. she has demonstrated this in actions, deeds, and words. The other nations I mentioned are her closest allies and share not only her position but also her vision of the world.

So for me it becomes a bit of a problem. Much as Germany wants to reform the UN, I want to reform NATO. If I were a German I would consider it a disgrace that the new members of NATO spend a greater percentage of their GDP on defense than the third biggest economy in the world and the nation with the most population in Europe. Of course, Germans feel free with the approval of france to change the rules to suit them. You can see this most recently with the stability pact and now with the ratification of the so-called EU constitution.

I would like to your suggestion on how to make this distinction. For as you said, there surely needs to be one. The general term allies does not apply as it is too board. How about the term the collation of the free?

As to what I am doing to protect your freedom. For those nations of Eastern Europe, I have written several letters requesting both support and consideration for programs to improve their defense capabilities. These letter have been sent to BG Benjamin Freakley, Commandant US Army Infantry School, Ft Bennng, GA; MG Jeffery Kohler, Director Defense Cooperation Agency, MDW; Mr. Ernie Gregory, Ast Sec of The Army, Financial Management and Comptroller. HQ DA, WDC. Each of these individuals I know from a previous professional association.

I have also written both of my Senators requesting they support any programs for those nations standing tall with the US in Iraq. I have done this in person. In fact, I was able to spend a few minutes this past weekend with Senator Miller. We discussed both the support of those nations who are making a contribution to Iraqi Freedom and also the current and future status of NATO. Unfortunately Senator Miller is retiring at the end of this session of Congress. As the primaries have not taken place, I am not sure who will run to replace him. I however, will do all that I can to endear myself to the Republican candidate to include both campaign contributions and campaign staff work so I will be afford a better forum to express my views.

Finally the only other thing I can to is to vote for the Presidential candidate who both best appreciates the support that has been given and will in some way be able to express this appreciation to those nations who have supported the US.

The only other thing I can do is to support those brave men and women who are serving today in Iraq. I have 7 personal friend who are now there, (6 US, and 1 Brit) and today I found out that I will have two more in country by mid summer. For each of these I not only write them, but their families. I include them each night in my prayers. Unfortunately, I do not know anyone on a personal level from the nations you listed.

As for being at this rather obscure site, I feel it is important for one to understand those who oppose you.

I am finding much what I expected to find. Right now there morale outrage about abuse lacks any sense of reality. I realize this reality is lacking because none who rage have ever bothered to study the mental and emotional make up of those who oppose us. If they did, they would discover two things. First none of this is torture; it is even questionable if it is really abuse. It is of course abuse when compared the civilian world in which they live. I do not expect them to understand that sentence but this is about insuring they can live in the world they currently inhabit. Secondly, they would discover these are very effective with no physical or mental effects to those who have endured this type of treatment. Having endured all these abuses myself, with the exception of the reported sodomy I can attest all of this to be true.

So once again thank you for point all of this out to me.


@Joe
These letter have been sent to BG Benjamin Freakley, Commandant US Army Infantry School, Ft Bennng, GA; MG Jeffery Kohler, Director Defense Cooperation Agency, MDW; Mr. Ernie Gregory, Ast Sec of The Army, Financial Management and Comptroller. HQ DA, WDC. Each of these individuals I know from a previous professional association.
...
In fact, I was able to spend a few minutes this past weekend with Senator Miller.
...
First none of this is torture; it is even questionable if it is really abuse. It is of course abuse when compared the civilian world in which they live. I do not expect them to understand that sentence but this is about insuring they can live in the world they currently inhabit. Secondly, they would discover these are very effective with no physical or mental effects to those who have endured this type of treatment.


If those by you above mentioned should share your views, I have little doubt that we have not seen the full extent of it. I am quite baffled.

@Joe,

an apology for the rather harsh tone of my last comment. It was not really directed at you personally or at you exclusively, of course. Again and again I have heard people everywhere talk about "Europe" when they really mean "Germany and France". So perhaps it is understandable that I sometimes feel I must stand up, raise my flag and remind people that they should not do Germany the favour to accept her position as representative of "Europe" as a whole.

"As for being at this rather obscure site, I feel it is important for one to understand those who oppose you."

I absolutely agree.

Note from David: tiki, now that you're in an apologetic mode: what about this "rather obscure site" remark? We're working hours every day to produce meaningful content. As visitor statistics and testimonials prove, we're rather successful, not rather obscure. And our comment sections are second to none in terms of interesting discussions on anti-Americanism.
What else does it take to get rid of the "rather obscure site" branding?

tiki,

Yes you are correct. the franco-german leadership in Europe will change the direction the other nations are now currently taking. They lack both the will and courage in so many areas to make a postive contribution.

For example, they will try to destory your economies before they fix their own. It is much easier to sacrifice your future than it is to build their own. Of course, they feel you have no future without them. In time, this will probably be true. The smaller nations of Europe will have no choice other than to follow the lead of the dynamic duo. I wish you well in this enviroment.

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