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Much creativity went into that video, the cleverness is beyond breathtaking. :\

nunja: nachdem der rechte Arier die Welt doch nicht erobern konnte, versucht es der linke Arier, nach einer Halbzeitpaus von etwas über einem halben Jahrzehnt, auf die andere Tour. Jetzt traut er sich mal wieder was. Es muß doch erlaubt sein, daß...

Mir wird übel: UND FÜR DERARTIGES ZAHLT MAN GEBÜHREN?

I'm not going to watch this video. Just seeing the images is painful enough. But perhaps someone could explain a little more about what this video clip is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't NAZI an acronym for National Socialist Workers Party?

Anti-Semitism may once have been a 'right-wing specialty' as you say, but it's the crowning achievement of the left to have raised anti-Semitism to a murderous pitch.

In the beginning, Hitler also claimed to be a Christian. Then once he got enough support, he changed the rules to where there could be no God in his state. He played a deft game of politics wherein he chose the most valued aspects of society to push his ultimate political goal: World Domination.

The United States Republican Party uses abortion issues and anti-homosexuality issues so that they are insured votes by people who perhaps would not vote for them otherwise.

Please don't take me the wrong way, I am by no means suggesting that the
U.S. conservatives are Nazi's, or anything close to Nazi's. I am just
pointing out that this is a GAME, to blame one political party or another
across the board for horrid acts. To blame ALL liberals for racism because
once, a long time ago, a freak named Hitler used the name National Socialists Workers Party is bad logic.

Following this train of thought does that mean all labor Unions everywhere are anti-semetic?

@Connie

"The United States Republican Party uses abortion issues and anti-homosexuality issues so that they are insured votes by people who perhaps would not vote for them otherwise."

Connie, I take it you are an American because I never seen you in this Forum before. Perhaps, because of your bias against Republicans, you are related to John Wilkes Booth :-)

The left has been using race baiting in the United States ever since the Clarence Thomas Confirmation Hearings. They are still using race baiting today. Take note of the rough treatment that two judicial nominees recently were subjected to. Both of these people were well qualified. One, an immigrant from Guatamala, has argued before the U.S. Supreme Court 15 times, as opposed to Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who never argued in front of the Supreme Court. The other, an African-American woman, sat on the California Supreme Court. Both of these nominees were attacked by Ted Kennedy under the pretense that they would erode Roe v. Wade. The truth of the matter is that it would be an anathema for a minority to stray from the leftest plantation.

Also take note of the way the left recently treated Sen Chris Dodd. Last year, Sen Trent Lott had to resign as majority leader because he praised retireing Sen Strom Thurman in public. Dodd recently praised Sen Robert Byrd in almost the same words. The fact of the matter is Byrd used to be a leader in the Klu Klux Klan. The left did not ask for Dodd to resign and the left leaning media has given him a pass.

Ted Kennedy sitting on any panel determining the fitness of a nominee for anything just boggles the mind. But since he yaps the Democratic Party line he gets a pass from them, except when in 1980 when Chappquiddick[spelling?] actually derailed him. What is this place that derailed dear old Ted? A bridge where monied families live near. Back in 1969 Ted was driving a campaign staffer home and they had to cross that bridge. Well Ted missed the bridge and went into the water. Ted managed to get free and stagger ashore. It was not until several hours later that Ted called the accident in. By then Mary Jo was long dead.
So to have seen Ted grilling Clarence Thomas over 'Long Dong Silver' and to talk about Bush 43 having a credibility gap, I think back to 1969 when through his negligence Ted Kennedy murdered someone.
But he spews the party line, so he is given a pass. Just like Clinton was given a pass. Kerry is being given a pass. While Trent Lott was forced from his position for being nice to an old man retiring. Packwood was forced to resign because he may have made a pass at a staffer or two.
Though when Jim Wright and Dan Rostenkowski ran afoul of legal problems, they did get booted. But that is the thing, it took them getting into legal hot water for the Democrats to abandon them.
Just by these examples I know which party is into enforcing one ideology at the expense of anything else. The Democratic Party.

If by race baiting you mean pointing out instances of racism, than I would
heartily agree with you.
The Clarence Thomas Confirmation Hearings was about Anita Hill (also black)defending her right not to be sexually harrased by Mr. Thomas. It was the Republicans who turned the whole thing into a partisan scandal.
I was searching for statements made by Ted Kennedy regarding the erosion
of Roe V. Wade, by Ginsberg and I could not find any. This does not mean they don't exist, however.
Trent Lott praised Strom Thurmond for trying to uphold jim crow laws, and claimed that if every one else had voted for him, a lot of the problems we have in American society would have been aliviated.
Dodd should have been made to step down as well. He praised Byrd for
upholding the constitution which is a lie, because Byrd voted against anti-segregation laws.

If by race baiting you mean pointing out instances of racism, than I would
heartily agree with you.
The Clarence Thomas Confirmation Hearings was about Anita Hill (also black)defending her right not to be sexually harrased by Mr. Thomas. It was the Republicans who turned the whole thing into a partisan scandal.
I was searching for statements made by Ted Kennedy regarding the erosion
of Roe V. Wade, by Ginsberg and I could not find any. This does not mean they don't exist, however.
Trent Lott praised Strom Thurmond for trying to uphold jim crow laws, and claimed that if every one else had voted for him, a lot of the problems we have in American society would have been aliviated.
Dodd should have been made to step down as well. He praised Byrd for
upholding the constitution which is a lie, because Byrd voted against anti-segregation laws. That was instance wherein the fact that Byrd was
a democrat was more important than the fact that he used to be part of
the KKK. Some politicians are in office because they are apart of the
scenerary, and not because they truly represent their party. The Democrats
should have made an uproar about that as well.

If by race baiting you mean pointing out instances of racism, than I would
heartily agree with you.
The Clarence Thomas Confirmation Hearings was about Anita Hill (also black)defending her right not to be sexually harrased by Mr. Thomas. It was the Republicans who turned the whole thing into a partisan scandal.
I was searching for statements made by Ted Kennedy regarding the erosion
of Roe V. Wade, by Ginsberg and I could not find any. This does not mean they don't exist, however.
Trent Lott praised Strom Thurmond for trying to uphold jim crow laws, and claimed that if every one else had voted for him, a lot of the problems we have in American society would have been aliviated.
Dodd should have been made to step down as well. He praised Byrd for
upholding the constitution which is a lie, because Byrd voted against anti-segregation laws. That was instance wherein the fact that Byrd was
a democrat was more important than the fact that he used to be part of
the KKK. Some politicians are in office because they are apart of the
scenerary, and not because they truly represent their party. The Democrats
should have made an uproar about that as well.

The basic worldview of the Left is more conducive to racism than that of the Right for one simple reason, the Left's worldview sees people as members of groups and classes, the Right's sees people as individuals.
It's as simple as that.

Just wondering ... but do you really know what SATIRE means ?
I thought you did since you obviously post a lot of it in this blog when it comes to satire that is directed against "the other side".
But now you seem to dislike satire that is different.

Just wondering but shouldnt you rather stop and wonder what the difference between you and those leftist radicals by now has become ( in my view it almost faded lately ).

WHAT in the world was this clip ???!! NDR, satire ???? I just couldn't believe what I was seeing and hearing.

Times are definitely changing. Not to long ago this kind of 'satire' was the exclusive work of fanatic right-wingers. Now, it is becoming mainstream in Germany ...

And I bet most Germans will find this to be a good clip. Just like the 'piece of art' in that museum in Sweden(I guess), where the Israeli ambassador freaked out. It was all his fault that he didn't understand 'subtle European art'.

Holy shit, what has become of us ??? Maybe it really is time to leave Europe.

Shameful. But not surprising.

Hey,

the video from Extra 3 is really one of the most anti-semitic viedos in german television since 1945 as far as I can see. Here is my comment, unfortunately in german...

If anyone has an idea how to stopp the viedo (my text is a first attempt to get a co called "Einstweilige Verfügung", that meens judges might refuse the sending of the plot, please tell me

antigerman regards

Clemens ,Berlin

Extra 3, NDR, 29. April 2004, 23 Uhr, begeht VOLKSVERHETZUNG

Antisemitismus in der ARD – Ein Video gegen Ariel Scharon, die Juden und Israel
Am 29. April 2004 soll in der ARD-Anstalt NDR, der Sendung Extra 3, ein antisemitisches Video ausgestrahlt werden, das die Kriterien der Volksverhetzung eindeutig erfüllt. Wir möchten Sie bitten, gegen dieses Hetz-Video zu protestieren.
Scharon wird gleich zu Beginn dieses Videos im Kreise tanzender Juden gezeigt, danach: „Scharon, kennt Ihr nicht ? Erklär ich euch: Scharon ist der Chef-Boß von Israel“. „Der will da ganz viel Frieden“ und Scharon knutscht ein Tierchen auf seinem Arm. „Die Idee mit dem Frieden hat er schon damals gehabt, als er mal mit dem Panzer in Israel spazieren gefahren ist“ – 1948, Bilder von Panzern. damit wird den ‚Kindern‘, die Extra 3 schauen, schon mal erklärt, nicht die arabische Seite hat den UN-Teilungsplan nicht akzeptiert und Israel nicht akzeptieren wollen, sondern die Juden, denn als solcher wurde Scharon ja im Kreis orthodoxer Juden in der ersten Scharon-Sequenz gezeigt, die Juden also fahren Panzer und wollen Frieden, merken aber plötzlich, daß da noch andere sind.
In der nächsten Sequenz sitzt der idelle Gesamtjude, schwarz gekleidet, super lachend auf einem mit PLO-Tuch bekleideten Palästinenser, der das Schild „doof“ vor sich hin hält, auf dem Rücken. Juden quälen Palästinenser, die sind die Doofen.
Dem armen Arafat wurde „der Balkon vergrößert, kostenlos“ und Siedlungen gebaut. Und was gehört zu Siedlungen dazu ? „Der größte Gartenzaun der Welt.“ Und dann mit den Bildern von in Reihe stehender suicide-bomber Armee: „Da sind die Palästinenser vor Freude in die Luft gegangen“ und es ist eine Explosion zu sehen und zu hören. Damit wird dem antisemitischen Kindergarten, der genüßlich das NDR-Programm am Abend goutiert, erklärt, die Massenmorde an Israelis sind aus „Freude“ über die „Siedlungen“ entstanden. Der ideologische Charakter des Islamismus und Antisemitismus/Antizionismus wird im Huldigen der suicide-bombers, die ja nur als völlig berechtigte Reaktion auf Scharon da stehen, geleugnet. Solche mediale Verkürzung hat insbesondere zu Zeiten aktueller politischer Debatten, Kongresse wie der gerade die nächsten drei Tage stattfindenden Konferenz des World Jewish Congress bzw. der OSZE Konferenz zu Antisemitismus eindeutig den Charakter von Aufstachelung der Bevölkerung, von Schüren von Haß auf israelische Politiker wie den israelischen Staatspräsidenten Katsav, der am Mittwoch Gast in Berlin sein wird, während das antisemitische Video des NDR bereits zur gleichen Zeit, seit dem 26. 04.2004 wenigstens, online einzusehen ist. Solche direkte Koppelung von politischem Tagesgeschehen und medialer Berichterstattung hat in dem Fall dieses satirisch gemeinten aber nur die Ressentiments der Redaktion von Exra 3 auf den Punkt bringenden Beitrags „Klaus“:„Ariel Scharon“ die Dimension der Volksverhetzung nach § 130 StGB.
Die Siedlungen fand nur „Meckerscheich Yassin voll Kotze“. „Und warum ? Einfach so, einer nörgelt immer“. Der Judenhasser und Freund der Nazis (vgl. Yassin Interview vom Frühjahr 2003) wird als „Meckerscheich“, der „nörgelt“, als Opfer der Israelis, als Opfer des brutalen Mörders Scharon gedacht. Der Beitrag des NDR kann geradezu als Epitaph der Hamas gelesen werden !
Den auch Rantisi wird als armes Opfer blinder Gewalt dargestellt, Scharon als der noch schrecklichere Kriegsherr denn Bush, dessen Soldaten in der vorherigen Einstellung knapp einem Bombenanschlag im Irak entkommen waren (und für diesen „Frieden selbst verantwortlich gemacht werden“, also nicht gesagt wird, daß die Freunde des Massenmörders Hussein hinter den Anschlagsserien im Irak stecken, sondern die USA selber, so der infame Bericht), was unter „Frieden im Irak“, den Scharon noch „besser“ hinbekäme, firmiert. Scharon wird als einer, der Rantisis Kopf abschießt, was flimisch widerwärtig gemacht wird, an den Pranger gestellt, alsbald aufgehängt, zuerst als Puppe...
Es führt in diesem antijüdischen Video des NDR eine direkte Linie von der Staatsgründung Israels mit Scharon als Panzerfahrer hin zum Siedlungsbau in jüngster Zeit. Die Siedlungen brauchen demnach den „größten Gartenzaun der Welt“, die Palästinenser finden das ganz prima, wird ironisch kommentiert und man kann kids in Hamas-Uniformen sehen.
Zum Bild des den Kopf Rantisis von einer riesigen Feuersbrunst zerstörenden Angriffs Scharons („Das kann ich doch viel besser als Bush“) folgendes Resümee: „Na dann ist der Frieden in Israel eine todsichere Sache“. Somit ist also Rantisi ein Garant des Friedens, dem vom Mörder Scharon der Kopf weggeblasen wird. Widerwärtiger, geschichtsklitternder kann Fernsehen nicht mehr sein. Es wird in diesem Video noch nicht einmal die übliche links-autonome Gleichsetzung von Bush und Bin Laden, Scharon und Yassin getrieben, sondern in der Tat gleichsam als Grabesinschrift einer ganzen Generation Hamas-Kämpfern und Ideologen wie Yassin und Rantisi gedacht, nicht als Massenmörder, sondern als Friedensfreunde, die seit 1948 von einem panzerfahrenden Ober-Boß der Israelis gedemütigt und massenhaft ermordet werden. Der Norddeutsche Rundfunk ehrt den Islamismus und seine Führer – beide eint der Haß auf Israel als jüdischem Staat.
Israelis sind Täter, die hier mehrfach in Stürmer-Manier als widerliche Juden dargestellt werden – komische Haare, schwarz angezogen, lachend auf dem palästinensischen Opfer sitzend, ihn körperlich quälend, Scharon dagegen als Tierfreund gleich in zwei Szenen ! Scharon mag Tiere und tötet Menschen, das soll rüber kommen.
Am Schluß des volksverhetzenden Videos wird ein am Baum hängender Scharon gezeigt, als Puppe (an der die Palästinenser „hängen würden“) und schließlich – jetzt ohne jede Ironie – eine Israel-Fahne verbrannt !!!

Unterstützen auch Sie eine Anzeige nach § 130 StGB gegen die Redaktion von Extra 3 !

kid charlemagne
I'm not going to watch this video. Just seeing the images is painful enough. But perhaps someone could explain a little more about what this video clip is.

How was your demonstration on Saturday against "Old Europe"? And it was one of their "Sendung mit dem Klaus (Maus)"-satires.

(Note to Americans: Extra3 is a very aggressive political satire-show which has been running for over 25 years on television, targetting almost anyone. Germans, conservatives, communists, socialists, Greens, Refugee-groups ("Vertriebenenverbände"), enviromentalists, feminists, industrial leaders, Americans, British, French, Russians, Arabs, etc. You name it, they ridiculed it. Leftist-leaning, but also brutally dishing out against the left.

Yes, the above is rather stereotyping and David picked out with good hand the one image I didn't like the most as well, but so would be a lot of their other satires on other issues AFAIK. Their feature "Die Sendung mit dem Klaus(Maus)" is a satire, which uses as vehicle a satire of a popular children's show, where a "nice uncle" explains the world to kids in simplistic terms)


@Clemens
the video from Extra 3 is really one of the most anti-semitic viedos in german television since 1945 as far as I can see.

Even more anti-semitic than the depiction of Jewish life in the recent Schimanski-crimeshow you also wrote about? Or the other Tatort-crimeshow from December? (all links in German only)

antigerman regards

One of those self-defined "antigermans" in our country, uh? Thanks that you are at least being open about it.

Have you considered venting your anger the classic American way? Mobilizing media and lobby-groups for your cause and organizing the sending of protest-faxes/calls to the top-level of the TV-station itself instead of going to the prosecutors first?

oops, correction to what I wrote:

Clemens actually lauded the Schimanski-movie (or at least wrote that cliches were here put into the right context), and damned the previous one in that article as well. (damn habit of speed-reading when digesting large volumes of information ;-)

Mea Culpa.

@clemens

ich stimme zu, daß das video antisemitisch ist. ich vermute aber, daß die einstweilige verfügung mehr aussicht auf erfolg hat, wenn ausschließlich auf die anteile hingewiesen wird, bei denen die juden als volk oder religionsgemeinschaft verunglimpft werden, bei denen also personen mit religiösen symbolen für die zwecke des videos mißbraucht werden. ein filmauschnitt, aus dem deutlich wird, daß sharon rantisi töten läßt, ohne auf dessen funktion als führendes mitglied einer terroristischen vereinigung einzugehen, mag geschichtsklitternd sein, erfüllt aber (glaub ich) nicht den tatbestand der volksverhetzung. dem gegenüber stehen krass antisemitische abschnitte, wie sie festgestellt haben, auf die man sich m.e. bei der formulierung konzentrieren sollte, und die bei weitem ausreichen sollten, das video aus dem verkehr zu ziehen. wie geht man denn jetzt weiter vor? will sagen, wie formuliert man den antrag formal korrekt? soll ja bei gericht nicht im mülleimer landen...

@klink

nanu? bin hier ausnahmsweise anderer meinung als sie: wenn §130 StGB erfüllt ist, sollte man dagegen vorgehen. mit selbsternanntem anti-german hat das nichts zu tun. bin pro-german und finde das video trotzdem äußerst bedenklich, es geht um den verdacht der volksverhetzung, nicht ums falschparken, da m-u-ß man sich an ein gericht wenden.

Sei haben Recht mit der anitjüdischen Passage, wo z. B. orthodoxe Juden verunglimpft (ein komisches deutsches Wort) werden. Das ist in der Tat die Herabwürdigung einer Religionsgemeinschaft. Ein sehr wichtiger Hinweis!

@Klink

I still hope someone will explain to me these self-defined "anti-German and communist" groups who are apparently pro-American/Bush on Iraq, which I mentioned.

Regarding your question on the 'Asymmetric Journalism' thread I recommend as an introduction

Antideutsch für Einsteiger
http://www.volkerradke.looplab.org/sonderweg.html
Anti-German for Beginners (English Version)
http://www.volkerradke.looplab.org/sonderweg-en.html

Das 'antideutsche Zentralorgan':
http://www.redaktion-bahamas.org/

@Deist

"Just wondering ... but do you really know what SATIRE means ?
I thought you did since you obviously post a lot of it in this blog when it comes to satire that is directed against "the other side".
But now you seem to dislike satire that is different."

Thanks, Deist, another great specimen for my "moral equivalence" collection. Tell me, Deist, is it OK to tell racist jokes about blacks, too? After all, we all tell jokes. It would be absurd to claim that all the comedians in the world are evil because they tell jokes, right?

Deist et al:

Perhaps the picture of Dresden in 1945 showing the statue of an angel overlooking the devastation wrought by the firebombing can be satirized as well?

Care to try?

To blame ALL liberals for racism because once, a long time ago, a freak named Hitler used the name National Socialists Workers Party is bad logic.

Once? I suggest you mention that to the Ukrainian kulaks, the Chinese peasants, and anyone who made the mistake of wearing eyeglasses in Cambodia.

Socialism and its variants are responsible for more dead than any other ideology.

I suggest you revisit your premises before criticising my logic.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213

THIS IS VERY INTERESTING-BUT NOT MENTIONED IN OUR MEDIA?! WHY? YOU CAN GUESS::::

@no comment
nanu? bin hier ausnahmsweise anderer meinung als sie: wenn §130 StGB erfüllt ist, sollte man dagegen vorgehen. mit selbsternanntem anti-german hat das nichts zu tun. bin pro-german und finde das video trotzdem äußerst bedenklich, es geht um den verdacht der volksverhetzung, nicht ums falschparken, da m-u-ß man sich an ein gericht wenden.

"Muss" meinst Du in einem moralischen Sinn, richtig? Ich bin kein Jurist und kenne bisher nur §138 StGB als Handlungs-Verpflichtung für Bürger. Bist Du Jurist? Ich merke, daß Du vorsichtiger im Formulieren bist - "Verdacht von" und "mehr Aussicht auf Erfolg hat, wenn". ;-)

Daß wir anderer Meinung sind, ist - unabhängig wie es in diesem Fall nun letztlich von den Behörden bewertet wird - nicht weiter überraschend: Mir ist klar, daß meine Sympathie für amerikanisches Free Speech in Deutschland nicht willkommen ist.

Ich glaube in einer selbstbewussten Demokratie mehr an die Einzel-Verantwortung der Bürger, mit gefährlichen Dingen umzugehen und entsprechend selbst zu reagieren anstatt diese Verantwortung (oder auch so vieles andere) auf den Staat abzuwälzen ("Warum ist das nicht verboten?"). Natürlich kann man jetzt mit der Geschichte kommen - und dagegen kann man im Prinzip nur wenig sagen und ich würde das Argument politisch korrekt verlieren. Aber gleichzeitig entledigt dies den Bürger auch ein wenig von vielleicht notwendigen Auseinandersetzungen, wenn sehr vieles über Gesetze geregelt wird ("das wollen wir doch mal gerichtlich klären lassen").

Wie ich hier schon mal kritisch als (zugegeben subjektive) Beobachtung erwähnte: Ob Volksverhetzung, Verleumdungs- oder Unterlassungsklagen/Anzeigen: Deutsches Usenet- und Internet-Foren beschäftigten die lokalen Gerichte mehr als jede andere Länderhierarchie IMO. Auch der Ansatz mancher Politiker, doch einfach gesamte Teile des Internets mit "gefährlichen Inhalten" für Deutschland sperren zu wollen....typisch irgendwie, anstatt eine offensive Auseinandersetzung zu suchen.

Ich komme halt aus der Ecke ACLU oder EFF, wenn es um Free Speech geht - und würde selber eher den effektiven Protest suchen, wenn mir etwas sauer aufstösst und denjenigen an den Pranger stellen anstatt den Staat um Verbote zu bemühen. Amerika ist uns da voraus.

P.S. Ich du-zte jetzt mal, weil es online üblich ist. Nicht despektierlich gemeint. Kann auch gerne förmlich Sie-zen, wie die Frau Gabi hier offenbar Wert drauf legt.

@Schulz
Regarding your question on the 'Asymmetric Journalism' thread I recommend as an introduction

Antideutsch für Einsteiger
http://www.volkerradke.looplab.org/sonderweg.html
Anti-German for Beginners (English Version)
http://www.volkerradke.looplab.org/sonderweg-en.html

Martin Blumentritt? _The_ Martin Blumentritt? Sigh. Is there *nothing else*? I have killfiled Blumentritt many, many years ago, back in Fido-Net already, because I was tired of his distintictive lengthy rethoric style. Alright, I'll try reading this eventually. (and not that surprised seeing that name in this context)

FWIW: groups.google.com has 24.600 Hits for Martin Blumentritt.

Weiss jemand mehr über den Artikel von Andreas
(http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213)
und was dahinter steckt?

@ Klink

Blumentritt sagt mir nix, aber was solls, ich werde die 24600 Hits jetzt nicht überprüfen.

Für weitere Infos gibt es bei Radke eine ganz brauchbare Linksammlung unter
http://www.volkerradke.looplab.org/links.html

Besonders die Seite vom Matthias Küntzel mit mehr theoretischen Texten ist ganz empfehlenswert, obwohl ich nicht weiß, ob er sich dem antideutschen Spektrum zurechnet.

@Andreas wrote:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213

THIS IS VERY INTERESTING-BUT NOT MENTIONED IN OUR MEDIA?! WHY? YOU CAN GUESS::::

The author of the article (who also turns up at US-conservative media-outlets -> dull surprise) said the same as you ("this stunning news has received little attention from the major media") and I stopped reading right there (*).

Because the obvious and trivial question would be instead: Bush and Blair were recently very quick in loudly presenting Libya and its WMDs - why not here the same? So I would suggest we wait until Blair makes a presentation of all this like he did on Libya, before we can finally cheer. Maybe someone can e-mail this article to Downing Street No. 10?

(*) I need my time now to read Woodward's "Plan of attack" which arrived yesterday. I discovered it via the recommended reading list of the George W. Bush campaign. Or maybe not, but sounds good for here, no? ;-)

@Schulz
Ah, die Linkliste sieht gut aus!

Und danke für's Ernstnehmen meiner Frage - ich interessiere mich für die Obskuritäten der div. linken Gruppierungen und ihrer Differenzen untereinander bisher nur am Rande, auch weil es gerade in Deutschland immer ein gewisses Elfenbein-Turm-Theoretisieren für mich war und man beim Thema Politik auch zusätzlich schnell intolerant wird, egal welcher Couleur (im Gegensatz zur USA, wo oft eine bessere Diskussionskultur herrscht).

Und vielleicht bin ich selber auch einfach zu wenig intellektuell dafür - who knows? Aber bei einer Mischung wie "anti-Deutsch", "kommunistisch" UND einer Stars & Stripes interessiert es mich halt doch und ich frag mich, wohin die Reise geht. Mein erster Gedanke war: "Merkwürdige Zweck-Allianzen?"

Most interesting.

I have to agree with what Peter said about groups and individuals. Having said that, both the Left and the radical Right tend to practice their own forms of racism. Please note how I phrased that because it was done with a purpose. The liberals in the US are the Left. The Left in the US is aligned with the Democratic Party. The Left is supported by Big Media, which also tends to be very liberal, and gets both more airtime and more positive coverage of their positions than mainstream Americans. The radical Right is extremely small in numbers and while the Left would like to align it with the Republicans, it has failed to do so.

As for the satire presented by Extra 3, I would have to think it was at best in very poor taste at worse it was both stupid and possibly anti-Semitic. Because it was presented as a satire does not excuse it from any of these possible judgments.

I make this statement based solely on the history of Germany and the history of the German people. This is one reason you do not see white southern males making satirical jokes about blacks in the US on a national television program. It is too easy to be misunderstood and would be considered to be stupid, insensitive or racists.

Klink likes to bring up from time to time visiting blog sites in the US where there are some who post a comparison of Germans to being Nazi’s. Is it possible these posters are just being satirical? Is it not equally possible that during the recent German national election when members of the SPD compared President Bush to Hitler that they too were just being satirical?

If she didn't want to be sexually harrassed, Connie, then why'd she stay? She wasn't Monica by any means.

With her background and color, she'd find a job.

Klink, Before you read Woodward's book, surf the American side so you can go in with eyes wide open.

He's contradicted himself a few times. Even trying the hatchet job, W comes out looking OK.

Which I'm sure made him grit his teeth.

sure,

after being caught broadcasting "stürmer"-like disguisting little jew-movies, everything was just meant satirical and by no means demagogic baiting

they must be very proud of themselves and their "avant-garde" daringness to put this piece of shit on their official ndr-homepage


OT:

about "anti-deutsche"

I heard about "anti-german" first time about a year ago and read a few pieces at "bahamas", I m not left-wing and was a little bored by the theoretical approach of their articles, but also learned a lot about the group thinking of the extreme left and their supporters

I also understood that the term "anti-german" doesnt mean to want to fight germany and germans, but that the "antigermans" are former(?) left-wing germans that are opposed to the nazi(national)/anti-globalism and anti-semitic affinities of the todays far left and therefore support (consistent to original marxism) america and progress

maybe they should better call themselves "german-neocons" ;)

or simply "anti-idiotarians" like (we) proletarians not having the patience to study marx :)

nth personal, but "anti-deutsch" sounds a least a little too tense to get really popular

ps:

keep your heads up, "alldeutsch" was also not as habile as the todays "liberal"

@Klink
Gern geschehen.

Aber bei einer Mischung wie "anti-Deutsch", "kommunistisch" UND einer Stars & Stripes interessiert es mich halt doch und ich frag mich, wohin die Reise geht. Mein erster Gedanke war: "Merkwürdige Zweck-Allianzen?"

Die ganz große Liebe zu den USA ist das für 'Antideutsche' in den meisten Fällen wohl nicht. Aber Amerika wird als das einzige ernstzunehmende Gegengewicht zu deutschen/alteuropäischen Ambitionen und zum Islamfaschismus gesehen. Deshalb macht für dieses Spektrum eine pro-amerikanische Politik durchaus Sinn.

@ch. speicher

about "anti-deutsche"

Das scheint mir eine ganz treffende Zusammenfassung der 'antideutschen Ideologie' in a nutshell.

Kommt es nur mir so vor, oder versucht man hier seitdem es mit Erfolgen an der Irak-Front und dem "hier sind die WMD" nicht mehr allzuweit her ist, daß man jetzt "Die deutschen sind Nazis", "die Deutschen sind antisemitisch" oder "die deutschen sind nur doof" schreit.

Mir fällt da der Spruch vom Splitter und dem Balken ein.

Es wäre mehr als Blödsinnig, wenn man die Amerikaner Rassisten und Sklavenhalter nennen würde, und doch ist es noch nicht allzu lange her. Wann wurde die Apartheid in den USA abgeschafft?

Im der selektiven Anwendung von Rechten und Grundsätzen sind die Amerikaner ja traditionell gut. Der in Ihrer "Constitution" festgelegte Freiheitsgrundsatz usw. galt für alle Einwohner....sofern Sie nicht schwarz waren..oder Kommunisten...oder Nichtchristen...

Ku-Klux-Klan oder wie war das?

Mann Mann Mann...

@Mathesar

Ist diese 'Satire' schuld der Amerikaner? Es spricht doch wohl nichts dagegen dieses NDR-Machwerk anzuprangern, insbesondere auf einer Seite, die sich kritisch mit den deutschen Medien auseinandersetzt.

Was das mit dem Irakkrieg und Bürgerrechten in den USA zu tun haben soll, ist mir nicht ganz klar - ach so, die Neocons sind Kriegstreiber und Rassisten, und wer hinter denen steckt, weiß man ja.
/Sarkasmus

ch speicher wrote
I heard about "anti-german" first time about a year ago and read a few pieces at "bahamas", I m not left-wing and was a little bored by the theoretical approach of their articles, but also learned a lot about the group thinking of the extreme left and their supporters

Good for you. And nothing changed in this regard since the 70s: German left-wingers often had spent too much time inside their heads, hatching up new ideas of how the world functions or should function. And then trying to convince everyone else of their view. Often teamed in earlier days with a level of intolerance. (And if it wouldn't give birth to things like this indirect Bush-alliance now, I prolly wouldn't care about it)

I also understood that the term "anti-german" doesnt mean to want to fight germany and germans, but that the "antigermans" are former(?) left-wing germans that are opposed to the nazi(national)/anti-globalism and anti-semitic affinities of the todays far left and therefore support (consistent to original marxism) america and progress

Yeah, though two minor corrections, from what little I gathered so far:

I am not sure on "not wanting to fight Germany", as I did read demands for a "demilitarization of Germany" from some of those people (I think Intiative Potsdamer Abkommen or something like that one of them???). That sounded quite determined anti-German - basically denying Germany any future-role in becoming an active military Ally alongside the US?

And I think you are very wrong calling traditional leftists "national". Those old leftists who are anti-American and anti-Israel will also gladly burn the German flag AFAIK. They view Germany as a guilty party of the "Western imperialist industrial-complex conspiracy to supress the world", alongside the US. They are anything but "national".

IMO - and I am guessing now myself - those new anti-German pro-American leftists are more a reactionary move against the recent propaganda-moves by nationalist right-wing Nazis against America and against Israel. (Also cause I see Antifas often listed) The quarrels now within the left, like at demonstrations, are more a side-product from this shift of _some_ of the leftists while others remained like always? It wasn't something desired in the first place. Does it make sense?

maybe they should better call themselves "german-neocons" ;)

Hey, I would suggest "anti-German neo-commies" ("anti-Deutsche Neo-Kommunisten") ;-)), as it makes clear it's different than the old leftists and at the same time builds a verbal bridge between Neo-Conservatives and them.

Alright, back to our usual programme, unless there should be more "anti-German" stuff. (Note to Americans: Any of the above is only about very tiny groups in Germany and not representative of our country)

Friedensland Europa:

Europäer überholen die USA

Die Staaten der Europäischen Union mischen nach Zeitungsberichten immer stärker im internationalen Waffenhandel mit - und exportieren erstmals mehr Kriegsgerät als die USA.
(von SPON)

@Klink

I am not sure on "not wanting to fight Germany", as I did read demands for a "demilitarization of Germany" from some of those people (I think Intiative Potsdamer Abkommen or something like that one of them???).

IIRC from reading this site this has more to do with the content of the original POTSDAMER ABKOMMEN which indeed called for German demilitarization and was not meant as a policy suggestion for today.

That sounded quite determined anti-German - basically denying Germany any future-role in becoming an active military Ally alongside the US?

The reason is that they doubt that it is the aim of German politics merely to be an ally alongside the US instead of looking for their 'place at the sun'(Wilhelm II).

IMO - and I am guessing now myself - those new anti-German pro-American leftists are more a reactionary move against the recent propaganda-moves by nationalist right-wing Nazis against America and against Israel. (Also cause I see Antifas often listed) The quarrels now within the left, like at demonstrations, are more a side-product from this shift of _some_ of the leftists while others remained like always? It wasn't something desired in the first place. Does it make sense?

Not really. I think this is not the right place for an in-depth discussion of that topic so I only say it has much more to do with internal far-left ideological differences than with recent Nazi moves. And what is new about Nazis being against America and Israel anyway?

Hey, I would suggest "anti-German neo-commies" ("anti-Deutsche Neo-Kommunisten") ;-)), as it makes clear it's different than the old leftists and at the same time builds a verbal bridge between Neo-Conservatives and them.

Ironically enough some of the early Neocons were indeed former leftists. And American 'Liberal Hawks' which are usually not distiguished from Neocons in Europe see themselves often at least as left of center.

I think this is not the right place for an in-depth discussion of that topic so I only say it has much more to do with internal far-left ideological differences than with recent Nazi moves.

Okay, I take your word now - I wouldn't be that deep within the far-left to know.

And what is new about Nazis being against America and Israel anyway?

Nazis were indeed always anti-American (seeing the US as "occupiers" here, not as Allies) as you say, but it was never so prominently displayed by them as their main-issue before IMO. Now since 9/11, I have seen myself suddenly Nazis with Palestinian scarfs or open "Anti US-Imperialism"-slogans (quite bizarre!), which I couldn't imagine back in the 1980s where I also seen a couple Nazi-demonstrations. So I do believe there was a shift on emphasis amongst the Nazis - and thus my earlier suggestion it might have triggered in return a shift in focus amongst many of the Antifas - to distance themselves with whatever means necessary.

But I could be wrong, as you say. I'll go read some more later on the link-list you gave me.

So I do believe there was a shift on emphasis amongst the Nazis - and thus my earlier suggestion it might have triggered in return a shift in focus amongst many of the Antifas - to distance themselves with whatever means necessary.

Last word on that matter from me tonight: I did not rule that out completly and it might have played a role for some Antifas to distance themselves from that new kind red/brown/green (both environmentalist and muslim) alliances but IMO this was only a minor issue.

Klink asked me: "How was your demonstration on Saturday against "Old Europe"? (This was a pro-Israel demonstation in Hamburg put on by several "anti-German" leftist groups.) So I'll respond with a short description. I'd say it was interesting, dramatic and scary. There were about 150 demonstrators and many more policemen. The massive police presence was appropriate and necessary given the aggressiveness of the "counter-protesters". Even before the official demonstration started, pieces of fruit, paintballs and a large beer bottle came flying towards us. Luckily, the bottle smashed on the ground and didn't hit anyone, but that set the tone for the rest of the demostration. Never have I been so grateful for the presence of police. They diligently kept the more violent counter-protesters at bay throughout the afternoon so that they were unable to do any real damage.

The protesters marched through the "Schanzenviertel", a notorious leftist district, some carrying large Israeli flags and one American flag, stopping to make speeches from a truck with a P.A. system mounted on it.
The speeches were difficult to hear due to the constant jeering of the counter-protesters, who were a mixture of young punks, old drunks, skinheads and Arabs. We were greeted by people giving us the finger and shouting all manner of obscenities at us on every corner.

One highlight for me was an Arab man who responded to a criticism of the media made in one of the speeches by shouting to the protesters, "You own the media!" He appealed to the police, as if they should be on his side, by shouting "They're pigs!" And ended his tirade, during which he got more and more angry, by shouting "Murderers! Murderers!" and shooting his right arm up in what looked like a Nazi salute and crying, "Allahu Akbar!"

In short, it was a few intense hours of enlightening street theater.

@Klink,

Do you actually or really believe that Germany will ever be an active ally of the US?

I suppose she pursued the lawsuit and stayed because of the principle
of the thing, and for that I am proud of her. Women have the right to work
along side men and not be harrased by men who may feel insecure around intelligent women. I believe this is the basis behind all sexual harrasment:
to debase the victim so that the victim fits back into the box the harraser
see's them as: ie; your a women, a women is primarily a sexual object, so I
will harrass you to remind you of this and put you in your "place." If she
had left the harrasment would have worked. She refused to cave.

kid charlemagne,

I m glad that you were not hurt there, I would never ever put a foot inside this "schanzenviertel"

and I m looking forward to stay at home on the first of may

-------------------------------------------------
schulz,

"Ironically enough some of the early Neocons were indeed former leftists."

that was the reason for my (maybe stupid) "german-neocon" remark, I read that SOME "neocons" were former trotskyists, and therefore were so called by their former comrades/other leftists.

btw:

do you know "The Intellectual Origins Of America-Bashing" by Lee Harris, I think it is very supporting for your point of view (as far as I got it)

klink wrote

"And I think you are very wrong calling traditional leftists "national". Those old leftists who are anti-American and anti-Israel will also gladly burn the German flag AFAIK. They view Germany as a guilty party of the "Western imperialist industrial-complex conspiracy to supress the world", alongside the US. They are anything but "national"."

I dont know if horst mahler fits in your definition of an "traditional" (radical) leftist.

he might even have burnt the nato-banner and the 1848-flag from time to time. but it seems to me he makes a pretty damn good nazi-asshole nowadays.

I never ever saw anyone burning the "reichskriegsflagge", maybe its a good compromis between leftist american haters, "national-liberal" bush-haters and older and younger nazis to burn the
actual/wave the former german flag while singing all three stanzas of our "lied der deutschen" plus "die internationale".

and (to come back to topic) watching funny "sendung mit dem 'juden raus'-klaus"-movies.

@ ch.speicher

I think you were absolutely right with your Neocon remarks. Sorry if this was confusing, I only wanted to emphasize your point towards Klink. -
Thank you for the link to the Harris article, I read it a while ago but it is definitly worth rereading.

I never ever saw anyone burning the "reichskriegsflagge", maybe its a good compromis between leftist american haters, "national-liberal" bush-haters and older and younger nazis to burn the actual/wave the former german flag while singing all three stanzas of our "lied der deutschen" plus "die internationale".

Even with their common love for the Palestinians and their hatred towards the US and Israel this seems to be unlikely in Germany. The fact that anti-Imperialists and neo-Nazis have some common goals does not mean that they are staging demonstrations together. On the other hand Mahler is a guy who already crossed the line from far-left to far-right. So you can't rule that out for the future ...

@ Klink

To give you a clearer picture: These divisions within the German radical left go at least back to the 1991 Gulf War when Saddam threatened Israel with poison gas attacks and a faction of leftists supported the war to defend Israel contrary to the mainstream-left which demonstrated with 'no blood for oil' banners against the war.

And back on topic: F@*# NDR and GEZ!

@Schulz
new kind red/brown/green (both environmentalist and muslim) alliances

To use the word "alliances" seems a stretch. A bit like openly accusing the US-conservatives to be having now alliances with anti-German communists in Germany. It's more a "common goals"-issue, something indirect.

@kid charlemagne

oh, cute report, tx! I had surfed now into leftist indymedia and found apparently here a picture from your demonstration from someone who participated as well...he said he had heard there were sadly injured from some bottle-throwers.

Considering though the additional provocative slogan "(Against ?) Old Europe", I would also call it more a pro-Sharon- and pro-Bush-demonstration instead of just pro-Israel alone. (like someone in the commentaries did)

@Stone
Do you actually or really believe that Germany will ever be an active ally of the US?

Kosovo, Afghanistan, the training of Iraqi high-level cops by German cops, etc., all worth nothing to you?

@ch speicher
m glad that you were not hurt there, I would never ever put a foot inside this "schanzenviertel"
and I m looking forward to stay at home on the first of may

Bad Schanzenviertel, uh? You never been to Kreuzberg-36 either? Open your mind, speicher, while you are still young. It's neither contagious nor really dangerous there.

It's actually thought-provoking to get an idea of people first-hand with a radically different mindset instead of having to rely on media like the Internet, newspapers or TV. It adds another dimension when you see someone's face and body-language in front of you while they present their goofy world-views to you, be it one-on-one or via passing-by demonstrations.

Especially Berlin is a great city for this diversity.

dont know if horst mahler fits in your definition of an "traditional" (radical) leftist.

I don't think Horst Mahler is representative for anything larger.

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