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Yes - but acknowledging that Germany is not immune means Germans have to stop blaming the Israelis, and the Americans, for 'getting what they deserve.' The leftist media has created this image over decades - how can they suddenly backtrack? And one would think the recent survey from Oxford on life in Iraq would blint their criticism of the American handling of Iraq; but now, any excuse to get a dig in at the Americans.

Geez it only took 200 to wake up, wonder how many it'll take to make them mad???????????

And the info the Norweigan researchers found is finally making it on the Spanish news.

They were played. AQ pegged them.

No german authority has ever said, that we're immune to terrorist attacks. In despite German Department of Interior was eager to warn against Terrorism every week. This is just polemic.
Even the media don't stated, that we're immune. Didn't we also help in Afganistan ? It is not the case, that germany is against the war against terror, we just think, there are other methods than just to oppose violence with violence. You reinvent the word "hate" every day by posing such assumptions.

The fact that it repeatedly falters is also a result of the – sometimes helpless, sometimes rash – direction of the Americans.
I'm sick of these socialist idiots.

America has been niether rash nor helpless.

A rash action is one made without thought, but it is America that has looked at a century of reactions to terrorism and a decade of reactions to Saddam Hussein, and declared, "No more!" The decision to deal with terrorists and Saddam Hussein in a military fashion made on the quick, but in fact had been debated for many years.

As for helpless, it was the United States that offered help to the UN in secure the UN facilities in Baghdad, but it was the thankless UN that turned down that help.

I'd venture to say that if the socialist, America hating, Bush Bashers were more willing to helpful America from the very beginning, then much of this wouldn't have happened.

Shame on the Socialists.

>Shame on the Socialists.

You mean Tony Blair?

My gut feeling is that the Germans actually are pretty sensitive to the risks of appeasement. I don't think that either the Germans or the French will allow themselves to be blackmailed by the terrorists. I hope I'm right. Although broad sections of the public and press blather about the uselessness of violence against terror, we should not forget that the intervention in Afghanistan enjoyed broad support. If we all stop shouting at one another, I think this incident will end up bringing us closer rather than separating us. Europe needs to forget about Bush for a while and focus on finding a common ground with the US. The US needs to stop pounding on the table and start listening. There is so much common ground that the few differences ought not to drive us apart. I believe that it is critical for Europe to get past its reflexive tendency to reject the American approach to everything and consider once in awhile presenting a united front with us, e.g. on Iran. If we stand together on issues such as Iran, North Korea, and Palestine, we will be able to achieve a great deal. The temptation to score short-term political points by bashing America is great, but so are the long-term risks of these irresponsible politics.

This should be a no brainer if we keep our emotions under control.

Karl B., dreamer.

Karl, we've been listening to you for 40 years.

(You've) had nothing constructive to say.

And don't bring up Iran, the EU's handling that one and you're going to get suckered again. Rumor has it they want a nuke by early 2005, they're ramping up buying for time. Then what do we do?

You also fail to realize that you were listened to when (your) boy Dom spoke for you at the UN. America listened, and I really don't think you appreciate how that affected people. And now w/the Oil-for-Palaces info, it looks even worse.

I also found out yesterday you're in Djbouti (sp). That is one major hotspot not on a lot of peoples' radar. But Schroeder's trump of anti-Ami won't be forgotten, even Mubarek's going to the ranch. Schroeder's lucky he saw the WH.

2800 deaths didn't make you listen, watching people choose to die by fire or jumping from 100-story buildings didn't do it so we've been pounding the table. NOW you listen when it's closer to home.

And no offense, but *the world* should have let us finish the job in 1991. But *the world* prefers "stability."

Sandy, you may want to check the dosage on whatever it is you're taking. I'm American.

I was responding to David's post, which also points out German scepticism over Zapatero's over-reaction. There was a good article in today's FAZ by Andreas Platthaus Mal Ehrlich that uses the word "capitulation" to describe Zapatero's behavior. Pretty strong language.

Iran is a real test case. I have no illusions about Iran. Some Europeans do. We'll see whether Europe and America can work together on that one. I'm disappointed by how many Germans make comments on TV that Iran is making progress as a democracy. Those last elections were a major setback for democracy. Iran is a theocracy and it is moving away from reforms.

karl b.,

i disagree with many of the things you say (not particular in this thread, it's rather a "global" problem), but the first paragraph of your answer to sandy makes you my personal hero of the day.

if anybody's looking for me - i'm under my desk, still convulsed with laughter.

Terror's Home Base - Cairo

Mohammed Atta came from Cairo, and Egypt is home of the Muslim Brotherhood, the first global Islamic terror organization.

The Egyptian mosques, Egyptian Islamic univeristies (especially Al Azhar in Cairo), Egyptian politicians, imams, and media are the #1 source of recruits and ideology for Islamic terror. Egyptians invented Islamic terror and the Saudis fund it. Even so called "Westernized" Egytpians support Bin Laden 100 %.

The Egyptians (and some Syrians and "Palestinians") are the murderers blowing up civilians in Iraq, and the Iraquis know it.

Iraquis are generally secular and lean towards the West. The Egyptians hate them for it, and they hate any show of pro US sentiment among the Iraquis, especially among the Sunni Iraquis. Of course they hate the Shia Iraquis as well. Hate and Malicious Envy are the two hall marks of the Egyptian character - a country of vipers!!!!!

Sandy,

Should we thank the generous USA for listening to us ? Speaking of arrogance…. Did you ever heard how the terrorist issue in Ireland is about to get solved ? Was the vietnam war morally and politically perfectly right ?
I appreciate America for alot of things, but still people make wrong decisions, because they're human and are all subjects in a complex system. Schroeder is an anti-american, just because his opinion differs politically on the Iraq issue ? I think you never met him personally. If friends have a diffrent opinion, that should be accepted. The afghan war was broadly supported by the public and the political elite in germany, and I think we contributed all we were capable of. Most germans think different about the iraq war and sadly some anti-american resentments are drawn of this issue, which has to be talked about. But by implying "you suckers are morally and intellectually inferior" and "it isn't worth listening to you", you are indeed: anti-german. It reveals that your opinion is also infected with emotion.
Germany and the USA aren't arguing about the necessity about a war vs. terror, but about how it is going to be fought. Opinions may differ, but we share the main goal still.

schroeder is an ass. there is nothing wrong with having a different opinion between friends. it is an entirely different thing to very publically use that difference to get your sorry ass re-elected. i love germany and i love german people but schroeder is a whore and i'll never respect him.

"Hate and Malicious Envy are the two hall marks of the Egyptian character - a country of vipers!!!!!"

thank you very much for that cool-headed, sophisticated contribution.

"i love germany and i love german people but schroeder is a whore and i'll never respect him."

of course he's a whore. one doesn't become a nation's leader without prostituting himself. don't be so naive.

dennis et al-
Anyone who fools themselves into believeing that the US and german "goals" for the middle east are similiar had better quickly have their damn head examined. why the need to wrap that fantasy of harmony and similiar goals around yourself when it is so obviously not factual?
Also for germany and others who think that her contribution of a meager 2000 troops to afghanistan and a veiled promise to "train" iraqi police OUTSIDE iraq is some kind of a "favor" to the US ought to also be beaten over their heads with a dusty sandal.
get off your self made thrones of flattery you fools.

Pato,

I talked about the goal to solve the problem of terrorism, which is superordinated to the middle east conflict. They also agreed that saddam has to go, but they argue about the means. :)
Also, as you should know, Germany's military is weak and our economy is not doing so well, so, 2000 soldiers were all we could contribute, because there are still troops in kosovo and all around the world, to fight terrorism.
Also, I don't understand, why it should be cheap to train police in a peaceful, democratic country with a quite effective police. They will also attend classes at police and military universities. Is that nothing ?
And no, we aren't sitting on thrones, some of us had/have different opinions about the iraq issue.

All I can say to the spanish is that I hope they're feeling lucky.

@dennis-
Different methods you say? Yes, quite different, both in approach and with intended outcomes. you say- "Also, as you should know, Germany's military is weak and our economy is not doing so well, so, 2000 soldiers were all we could contribute"
Why then does your chestnut haired and vertically stunted showboat of a leader spout off at the mouth as if he and his ducklings CAN make some kind of contribution? Again my point was WHY is the US still forced to keep her young men and woman in Europe? WHY is the US the one forced to keep 35,000 of her young men and woman on the DMZ in Korea supporting a UN effort thats lasted for 50 years? The clowns in the EU call afghanistan efforts to date a "failure", well who has caused such a failure? What would you call the current kosovo issues that are right in your own back yard? a "german success"?
So we all have the same understanding here it seems- That the muslim populations of this world are in a great crises, and they are bringing that "crisis" to the civilized Western Countries once it seeps from the region.
I think it is very important for ALL PEOPLE to look at the differences of approaches by the US and that of the EU- and then, among yourselves, determine WHAT would be MORE effective. I find it ABOSLUTELY insane that the approaches taken by the EU and the US are thus-
To address the huge crisis's facing the western world as it is threatened with total extinction, brought about by identity crisis's in the Muslim world, and the crisis and the problems that have been brought with them into the EU- The EU begins to ban various types of clothing as a response to said crisis and germany installs footbaths in the court for muslims to wash their feet in rather than using the urinal they had been using-
http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1432_A_1109617_1_A,00.html To address the huge Muslim crisis and the problems with them- the US position was to go in and knock a bloody insane dictator from power freeing all 25 million of it's people, and now all the remaining dictators shit in their pants AND the whole EU population hates the US. In the meanwhile all the citezins of Iran and Syria are praying for a Bush election victory and a subsequent toppling of their dictators while at the same time the "eu" makes multiple attempts to shame the US and it's people.
Again- a hearty fuck you is all that should be offered to the "eu".
Seems something is wrong here.

Dennis and fellow travellers,

Much of the problem is that "they argue about the means" for years if not decades...whilst thousands of Iraqis and other such innocents get one-way tickets to plastic shredders and anonymous fields.

In the pathetic name of "dialog" and "peace for our time" no less.

In the mean-time your apparent fellow travellers trot out the litany of standard excuses such as; 'our military is weak' and 'our economies are moribund' - only to be blind to the reality that they are so because your masses and their pinko mis-leaders cling to the belief that yet another tired twist on Marxism will somehow turn out to be different this time...rather than leading to yet another dessicated pile of human corpses as every other slow socialist crawl to tyranny has shown the survivors the fruits of.

Many Americans - as symbolised through President Bush - are very clear as to why your annointed emperors of naked doubt and cloaked innaction snort and stomp in your ineffective derision.

Why is this?

At least half of Americans still have the priveleged gift of hindsight, of having weathered with eyes open, the socialist malaise that forever softens your heads...of having had to sweep up the hairballs of your various utopian experiments and dump them into the dustbin of history...and onward to success.

When they have a free moment away from stupidity, europe would do well to take heed and realize that Americans have grown overly tired of bailing little 'c' and big 'C' communal europe out of their most recent self-imposed spider hole ideological fantasy.

Despite your vichy continent's recent foot-stomping, gonad shrivelled, bile-flecked tantrum about "American imperial arrogance", many America-centrics such as myself actually view the latest cultural decline of the incontinent continent with a mixture of resigned pity bordering on loathing over having to spend more of our red blood and hard earned treasure to mitigate your latest societal disaster and demographic descent into dhimmihood.

Long live the empire of reason connected with action!

May the multilateral rohingyas of crocodile appeasement not have to suffer to reap the terrorist bomb crop that they can't even manage to drop the cojones to sow upon the furrowed redoubts of her apparently one-sided enemies.

Thanks to the unilateral action of a crusading American Rancher from Texas, you may ~still~ not have to spend your precious marxian shekels on self-defence.

But you are free to do so should your leaders wish to grow up.

Which is as far as I'll go toward appeasing your cultural mistakes...

--Should we thank the generous USA for listening to us ? Speaking of arrogance…. Did you ever heard how the terrorist issue in Ireland is about to get solved ? Was the vietnam war morally and politically perfectly right ?--

You guys have been bitching for at least 20 years that we don't. Now that we do, bitch, bitch, bitch, seeth, moan, whine.

Viet Nam was business. Domino effect theory will or will not be approved in Iraq. Signs are looking good.

The terrorist issue in Ireland is branching out, 3 IRA members busted last year, I think they're training FARC. Guess we'll find out in the future who else they'll work with.

Dennis, nothing is perfectly right. While major operations of WWII are over, we haven't won your hearts and minds. For some odd reason, like moths to a flame, you want to keep listing left. Didn't learn anything from the Wall and the USSR, I see.

At this point in time, I wish we had the tech to build a bubble and forcefields around our allies and us and leave the rest of you to your EUtopian ideas which will, once again fail. If they even get that far with the vipers in your bosom. But once again, it'll only fail because it wasn't done right. So you'll keep trying. And you will keep failing.

Socialism kills, free markets feed.

As to Nam? The oppressed workers of the Nike factories can now afford cars. Only 30 years and millions dead. Could have been sooner.

SK, Japan and Old Europe boomed, they all have something in common, care to guess what?

OH, and Dennis?

I know that an agreement that doesn't cover 1/3 of the world's population, the 1/3 that's going to need a ton of energy because they're the up-and-comers, is a failure.

China's energy usage added the euqivalent of the country of Brazil or Argentina in 2 years.

There could be oil skirmishes between Japan and China.

I also know that Germany deliberately chose 1990 and the baseline because of East German plants. It was easy to shut them down and get credit. And that Germany will not meets it's goals this year but Britain will, IIRC. Or did not.

I know that if the Euros weren't so inflexible, Kyoto might have passed, but it was more important for you to be stubborn than to add India and China.

I know the Russians have your number.

I know that a new satellite just launched measuring something for the next 6 years which will aid in all of us tackling this. I know that the methodology was flawed. I know parts of the Sahara are turning green and the UN missed it for over 15 years.

And the Belgian economic minister knows it's a sham and said so on Belgian radio and the Enviro minister was not happy.


This morning on the Belgian radio news: Fientje Moerman, minister of economic affairs, lamenting about the woes the Kyoto protocol is causing. Either it means very heavy investments in even further (minimal) polution reduction (which causes companies to run away and jobs to be lost) or it means sending large amounts of cash abroad for no good reason ('buying clean air elsewhere'). And some people in the government even want to put a cap on the amount of 'clean air' that can be bought elsewhere, thus forcing the loss of jobs.

Oh, and since there is policy to 'get out of nuclear energy' in Belgium, the pollution reduction forced on the industry has to be more severe than it already was when the protocol was signed: Nuclear plants don't emit greenhouse gasses, but their future replacements surely will.

Freya Van Den Bossche, the minister for the environment, refused to comment.

Via Live From Brussels 9/03.

For Sandy: ( Satire )

America is bitchy and has no culture for at least 200 years.

WWII was business. Domino theory will or will not apply. But it looks bad.

IRA are gang-banging. Go look !

Sandy, nothing is perfectly right. USA won our hearts and minds, but now we aren't doing what they want. So they bash us. They learned nothing from WWII.

Socialism feeds, Capitalism enslaves. (Note: The USA also integrated some socialist ideas . Go look up Franklin D. Roosevelt)

As to nam, 60000 american Soldiers died, over 1mio Vietnamese emigrated. Globalisation is only USAs fault, because they enslave all nations.

USA abuse their power.

......

This is pointless.

@Pato:

Nothing is as it seems. :)

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