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That's pretty ironic. Reminds me of an old Robert Crumb cartoon in which a middle-aged, middle-class liberal gets mugged by a bunch of street thugs. After they've beaten him up and stolen his money, he calls out something like, "I understand you completely, I'm on your side!"

O ja, Deutschland ist ja soo antiamerikanisch. Deswegen kam nach Schröders populistischem und vorgeblichem Pazifismus im Wahlkampf auch eine zügige Übernahme von größerer Verantwortung in Afghanistan: Vorher war Deutschland nicht bereit gewesen, die halbjährige Führungsrolle zu übernehmen, nun stehen die Deutschen gemeinsam mit den Niederländern in leitender Funktion am Hindukusch. Was immer man vom Irak-Einsatz der Amerikaner halten mag, Deutschland hat ihn zwar nicht politisch, aber indirekt militärisch gestützt.
Aber Deutschland lässt ja auch Leute wie Mzoudi laufen. Nicht etwa, weil die amerikanischen Behörden Informationen zurückhalten, die gegebenenfalls zur Verurteilung solcher Leute führen könnten. Nein, in Wirklichkeit warten wir nur auf den Tag, an dem wir unseren kommunistisch-islamofaschistischen Trieben freien Lauf lassen können und Osama bin Laden endlich, endlich! zum Bundeskanzler wählen können.

Die monierte Meinung von Johannes Rau:
"Terrorism can only be tackled effectively by combating root causes such as poverty and inequity via policies of development. "

Ein passendes Zitat von George Bush jr.:
"We fight against poverty because hope is an answer to terror"

Deutsche in Arbeitslosigkeit: über 4,5 Mio. und steigend
Amerikaner ohne Krankenversicherung: über 43 Mio. und steigend

Sehe eigentlich keinen grossen Grund für einen "My country is better than your country"-Unterton??

Da ist er wieder, der Mythos "in Amerika verbluten Menschen in der Notaufnahme, weil sie keine Krankenversicherung haben".

Hier mal ein passender Bericht von jemandem, der tatsächlich in den USA lebt und sein Geld nicht mit Büchern verdient, die auf die Märkte ausserhalb der USA zielen:

Whatever one thinks of illegal immigration, however one laments the absence of HMO cards like mine in the hands of every American resident, and despite the rhetoric that our poorest communities are given inadequate health care, the destitute without attention is not what I saw last week and many such times in the last 20 years with my accident prone children.
In some of America's most impoverished landscapes, our government at great cost and in the hallowed traditions of American humanity and magnanimity is offering hourly excellent medical care to literally anyone who walks through the emergency room door, whether they have a broken arm or a sprained ankle. That is how it should be—but also how it should be acknowledged as well.
So we should perhaps remember that we are not heartless the next time some demagogue slurs the United States as an oppressive society that ignores its less fortunate. By any definition of classical poverty and neglect, the patients I sat with last week were neither terribly impoverished nor without care—nor worried in the least about how all the nurses, doctors, receptionists, and expensive machines and drugs that they took for granted would be at their service were going to be paid for.

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Ach ja, und zu Sehe eigentlich keinen grossen Grund für einen "My country is better than your country"-Unterton?? - wieviele Amerikaner wandern jedes Jahr nach Deutschland ein? Wieviele Deutsche wandern jedes Jahr nach Amerika aus? qed.

wie hat deutschland denn den irak feldzug unterstützt?
zur wirtschaftslage der beiden länder: george hat wenigstens etwas getan, hat die steuern gesenkt und die wachstumsraten gehen nach oben. deutschland erstarrt seit 20 jahren. irgendwelche zitate sammeln und vergleichen nützt auch nix, taten muss man vergleichen. deutschland IST ein appeaser. wenn es nach der bundesregierung ginge, könnte der mittlere osten sorglos atomar hochrüsten und selbstmordattentate verüben...bin mal gespannt was passiert, wenn die erste bombe in deutschland hochgeht. nach dem attentat auf djerba, wo 20 deutsche starben, passierte ja nix.

Why cancel a stopover in a place like Yer Booty? Why not instead show them that you are fearless to the islamo-fascists and continuing with one's planned itinerary?
Is his security detail that in-effective?
This sounds simliar to the brave french interior minister recently running down the street from the pack of beurs shouting abuse to him while he was out promoting his battling of street crimes. Truly amazing for a modern country.
Why couldn't Rau simply sneek in to serve some turkey or something similiarly creative?

Hmm, der zitierte Autor schreibt Bücher über die Bedrohung durch die mexikanischen Einwanderer ("Mexifornia"), über die Glorie von im Krieg siegreichen Demokratien und über die Stärke von Demokratien, auf dem dem einfachen Bauern und seiner Welt beruht - das lässt sich zumindest der verlinkten Seite entnehmen (danke, flursn). Stellt sich nur die Frage, ob jemand, der so offensichtlich auf eine Leserschaft innerhalb der politischen Rechten zu zielen scheint, zwangsläufig glaubwürdiger oder besser informiert ist als jene Strolche, deren Bücher auch mal im protokommunistischen Ausland zitiert werden.

An Holger S.:
Ich möchte mal behaupten, dass durch die Entsendung zusätzlicher truppen und die Übernahme von Führungsaufgaben in Afghanistan die Amerikaner dort spürbar entlastet haben - zumindest hat Bush den bösen Deutschen dafür mal seinen Dank ausgesprochen. Und - zumindest so der logische Gedankengang - wer an einer Front weniger zu tun hat, der kann mehr Kräfte auf die andere konzentrieren. Indirekte - und ich schrieb: indirekte - Unterstützung kann man das schon nennen.

Blödsinn. Das verrät mehr über Ihr politische Einstellung, Stefan, als über VDH.

Amazon schreibt über VDH:

Hanson is immensely sympathetic to poor Mexicans, however, and the most powerful chapter here outlines the harried life of the illegal alien. But he hates to see the ordered culture in which he grew up drowned by an alien inundation whose undeserving beneficiaries are Mexico's kleptocratic rulers, for whom an open border is a safety valve expelling the potential for democratic change. The four solutions to the mess that Hanson enumerates include continuing de facto open borders but insisting on rapid acculturation; patrolling the border effectively and reducing legal immigration; imposing "sweeping restrictions on immigration" and ending Mexican chauvinism in the U.S.; and allowing present policies to make California increasingly mirror an unreformed Mexico. Hanson thinks that the U.S. "still need not do everything right" to prevent social collapse in the Southwest and that the totalitarian uniformity of valueless mass culture may soften that collapse. He also sees very clearly what has brought this crisis on: the American globalist ideology's lust for cheap labor and emphasis on "raw inclusiveness" instead of "standards and taste."

Auch schreibt er nicht über über die Glorie von im Krieg siegreichen Demokratien, sondern über die Stärken und Werte unserer westlichen Zivilisation, die es auch im Kampf mit Terroristen niemals zu kompromittieren gilt. Und es geht in seinen Büchern mitnichten über den einfachen Bauern und seiner Welt, sondern über seine eigene Herkunft als einfacher Bauernsohn, der es in der akademischen Welt zu Ruhm gebracht hat, dabei aber nicht im Elfenbeinturm gelandet ist.

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Haben Sie noch mehr Versuche geplant, Menschen die Ihrer Ideologie nicht zusagen mit solchen plumpen Vergleichen zu diffamieren?

@flursn

Niemand sprach von "Verbluten". Legen Sie anderen Leuten immer Dinge in den Mund oder wollten Sie nur einen Link auf einen VDH-Artikel loswerden?

Und das Thema "Deutsche Arbeitslose" darf man übrigens ebenfalls nicht gleichsetzen mit einem Obdachlosen, der im kalten Nebel in Hamburg am Hafen steht mit einem Schild "Will work for food".

Wenn wir schon von blumigen Bildern reden. ;-)

Sie haben eine Äquivalenz zwischen "Deutsche in Arbeitslosigkeit: über 4,5 Mio. und steigend" und "Amerikaner ohne Krankenversicherung: über 43 Mio. und steigend" hergestellt, die für jeden Amerikaner, der Sie offensichtlich nicht sind, lächerlich ist. Kommen Sie mir nicht damit, es wäre für Sie keine grosse Sache gewesen. Sie haben bewusst ein klassisches Stereotyp herausgekramt, um die USA schlecht aussehen zu lassen. In Wirklichkeit sind es Menschen wie Sie, die hier in Deutschland den Anti-Amerikanismus mit solchen dümmlichen Lügen schüren.

Diffamierung? Sie meinen so etwas wie: Autoren, die sich kritisch über die USA äußern, sind zwangsläufig Ausländer, die im Ausland Bücher verkaufen wollen? Stellt sich die Frage, WER hier diffamiert. Ganz zu schweigen davon, dass ich weder beleidigend geworden bin, noch die Werke des zitierten Herrn a priori verdammen wollte - schließlich kenne ich sie ja nicht. Ich wollte lediglich eine gewisse Reltavierung der postulierten Sachkenntnis des Autors vornehmen, der von Ihnen gewissermaßen als der Weisheit unendlicher Quell präsentiert wurde. Auch wüsste ich gern, was für eine "Ideologie" ich an den Tag gelegt haben soll, die über ein kritisches Nachfragen hinausgeht.

flursn,

Super, dass Sie da sind!

"Rolf Füllmann", "SRK", jetzt "stefan"... irgendwo muss es einen Friedhof geben, dem diese Zombies entsteigen :-)

@Holger S.

Dass Zitate doch immer nur Schall und Rauch sind, wollte ich eigentlich damit auch mit diesem Vergleich beweisen. ;-)

Und zum Thema Appeaser: Inner-Deutsch sind wir das eigentlich weniger, wenn man an Otto-Katalog, etc. denkt. Die Republik hat sich schon verändert seit dem 11. September. Und Dinge wie "Einsperren ohne Verfahren im Namen der nationalen Sicherheit durch präsidiale Unterschrift" wird es bei uns aufgrund der Nazi-Erfahrung nicht geben.

Das Thema Auslands-Appeasement wird ebenso immer ein kontroserves Thema für Deutschland bleiben (abgsehen davon, daß die dauernde Militär-Kürzung von Rot/Grün ein Witz ist). "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen" wird langsam zu "Am westlichen Wesen soll die Welt genesen"? Und warum nur beim Nahen Osten bleiben, sollte man nicht auch eingreifen, wenn Nord-Korea oder China immer weiter hochrüsten? Wenn man konsequent ist, sollte man dann nicht jeden potentiellen Menschenrechtsverletzer und Gegner mit militärischen Mitteln stellen? Es scheint mir eine Mischung aus Naivität und Selbstüberschätzung - wann genau soll eigentlich Afghanistan eine offene Demokratie sein?

Und während Schröder in der Tat wirschaftlich versagt hat, ist bei Bush doch keineswegs sicher, daß er Erfolg haben wird. Die Steuern muss er ja auch weiterhin niedrig halten, um die USA für Investoren weiterhin attraktiv zu halten. Und es wird sich zeigen, ob das Wachstum schnell genug ansteigt, um die weiterhin drastisch ansteigenden Defizite mal in den Griff zu kriegen.

Ha ha. Es ist faszinierend, für wie dumm Sie mich halten. Sie haben oben geschrieben: "der zitierte Autor schreibt Bücher über die Bedrohung durch die mexikanischen Einwanderer ("Mexifornia"), über die Glorie von im Krieg siegreichen Demokratien und über die Stärke von Demokratien, auf dem dem einfachen Bauern und seiner Welt beruht - das lässt sich zumindest der verlinkten Seite entnehmen (danke, flursn). Stellt sich nur die Frage, ob jemand, der so offensichtlich auf eine Leserschaft innerhalb der politischen Rechten zu zielen scheint"

Sie haben oben gelesen, worüber VDH tatsächlich schreibt. Es gehört schon ein gehöriges Mass an Bösartigkeit und ideologischem Fanatismus dazu, die Bücher von VDH in dem Masse umzudeuten, wie Sie es hier getan haben. Tun Sie jetzt nicht so, als hätte Sie auf Reich-Ranitzki-Niveau Ihren ersten Eindruck geschildert. Sie haben ganz klar darauf abgezielt, mit Schlüsselwörtern wie "Bedrohung durch Einwanderer", "Glorie (...) Krieg", "politische Rechte" VDH als objektiven Beobachter zu disqualifizieren.

Eine weitere Diskussion mit Ihnen betrachte ich als überflüssig.

An flursn:

Danke, desgleichen. Das ist aber noch kein Grund, so herumzubrüllen. Aber in einem haben Sie recht: Manche Leute ertragen die Meinung anderer nicht und fangen an, beleidigend zu werden. Sehr unschön, so was.

Ach ja, Stefan, ich habe keineswegs impliziert, "Autoren, die sich kritisch über die USA äußern, sind zwangsläufig Ausländer, die im Ausland Bücher verkaufen wollen", sondern es sind fast zwangsläufig Charaktere wie Michael Moore, Susan Sontag und Noam Chomsky, die ganz genau wissen, dass es Europäer wie Sie gibt, die jedes ihrer Märchen nur zu bereitwillig aufnehmen.

Davids Medienkritik makes the excellent point that appeasement will not work or will it? As an article of faith you must get down on your face and repeat every day.

There is no surrender except surrender and appeasement is its policy.


If you do this faithfully you get to go to paradise and where you will be one of the 70 virgins.

VDH unterstellt offenbar ganz offen einigen europäischen Staaten, sie hätten sich auf die Seite der Terror-Gruppen geschlagen.

Immerhin besitzt VDH damit eine entwaffnende Offenheit gegenüber anderen konservativen Schreibern - der Mann spricht offen aus, wie er über Teile von Europa denkt.

Liebe spalten mit direkten Worten als spalten mit Weichspüler-Rethorik.

VDH schreibt oft genau das, was Sir Richard hier aus eigener Erfahrung beschreibt.

>Auch schreibt er nicht über über die Glorie von im Krieg siegreichen Demokratien, sondern über die Stärken und Werte unserer westlichen Zivilisation, die es auch im Kampf mit Terroristen niemals zu kompromittieren gilt.

Sehr treffend, besonders das ehrliche "im Kampf mit Terroristen" statt des selbstgefälligem und inkorrektem "im Kampf gegen Terroristen", dass es ja erst seit 9/11 gibt. Denn so lange wie die Sowjets in Afghanistan waren, haben die "Werte unserer westlichen Zivilisation" ja die USA nicht eben behindert den Kampf MIT Terroristen zu führen.

Neutraler, VDH ist kein "konservativer Schreiber", sondern ein Mann, der masslos von "den Liberalen", "den Demokraten", "den Progressiven" enttäuscht ist. Das beschreibt ebenso mein Lebensgefühl - ehemals "ein Links-Liberaler", der erkennen musste, dass unsere Gutmenschen hier in Deutschland, Europa, und an amerikanischen Universitäten nichts anderes als "Salon-Kommunisten" sind (go google). Wasser predigen und Wein trinken. Alles ist erlaubt, wenn es nur "einer von uns" tut (Sie wissen ja, Frauenwitze unter Linken sind Ok, man hat ja bewiesen, dass man grundsätzlich auf der richtigen Seite ist).

When I Was Young ...

When I was young, my father used to get me out of bed, in a thick John Kennedy accent, and with perfect Bostonian mimicry order me to start the day with “viga.” I think he meant “vigor” in the sense of the new Kennedesque idealism at home and abroad. My isolationist grandfather would sigh and concede that Harry Truman was right after all, in spending all our hard-earned tax dollars in strange places like Greece and Turkey and sending relatives and friends to worse in Korea. There was a sort of guarded idealism of the need to promote democratic values, coupled with the tragic acceptance that such sacrifice would always be misinterpreted and caricatured. But the idea, my grandfather also added, was to make places abroad a little freer so Americans would not have to be attacked here at home by those who hated us.
And then I grew old and learned that somehow Iraq was not like Panama, or Serbia, or Afghanistan, where without the UN, Congressional approval, and mostly alone we took out dictators and theocrats and left the foundations of democracy in their place. Instead, something that made no real sense in terms of classical economic exploitation was said to be about “blood for oil,” or promotion of the Likud party in Israel, or creating a new empire in the Middle East—all this about a country that we debated publicly a long time about invading, went to the UN, got congressional sanction, and toppled its dictator in three weeks, and then stayed on for another year to ensure the Iraqis had a chance for the only freedom in the Arab Middle East.
The world has changed. What was once liberal is now illiberal, and the old progressivism has become mean-spirited and opportunistic. What was once idealistic is seen as calculating. When I read about the “Jews” now, it is almost always negative and emanates either from the European left or the so-called liberal university here in the United States. Israel, still democratic and still attacked by autocracies, is now hated rather than respected, not for what it has done, but for what it is. The world snored, for example, this week when suicide bombers were foiled in their attempts at getting at a chemical weapons dump so that they might once more gas Jews. Neither Kofi Annan nor Desmond Tutu, for all their recent media appearances, said a word when Palestinians apologized for murdering a jogger in Jerusalem on the mistaken impression that the poor Arab was a “Jew.”

>> sondern es sind fast zwangsläufig Charaktere wie Michael Moore, Susan Sontag und Noam Chomsky, die ganz genau wissen, dass es Europäer wie Sie gibt, die jedes ihrer Märchen nur zu bereitwillig aufnehmen.

@ flursn

so jetzt reicht's entgültig. jeder der drei von ihnen genannten hat bei weitem mehr auf dem kasten als sie es jemals haben werden. über moore als satiriker mache ich hier keine aussage, aber weisen sie mir eine erlogene aussage von chomsky oder sontag nach, nur eine einzige!!! ansonsten schweigen sie zu diesem thema, denn dann haben sie offenbar nichts zu sagen!

Mexicans are not islamo-fascist jihad freaks.
Terror is not what the US fears at all from mexicans. the mexicans do indeed come to the US and take a HUGE portion of social services meant for older people and the dis-abled. But they do not pack any bombs and are not trying to infiltrate the US to blow it up and take it over. Though there are a dozen or so members of MECHA who would like that "takeover" part which is not even close to any possibility.
They are a strongly catholic people, not virgin seeking immigrant freaks such as those brought into the "eu" for labor and to pump up the vote totals for the imbecile left-wing welfare politicians. They are living among you like dirty flies at a picnic, simply waiting to apply their brand of Islamo-fascisim to your society.
ou fools on the left in both Spain and germany coddle and embrace these murdering coward monkeys as if they were part "of your struggle against modernity".
The 9-11 cowards lived, planned, and carried out the attacks from the cozy base in europe. What is it about life in europe that makes those who come seeking your generosity and welfare spend a few years among you and then want to go out and kill all things western? Have you welcomed and charmed these newcomers to your society so much that they then lose their minds? Do you explain the sordid conditions of your cities and economies as being the fault of the jews and the US? Is it THAT which then turns them into virgin seekers so readily?
I really have to laugh at you pathetic assholes- the US re-built Germany and Japan, among others, and created the constitutions and democracies that exist there today. Don't offer you child-like explanation with selective memory that you have taken care of that "thank you for assisting us" BS already. It's been just 50 short since the US liberated Europe, it is attempting the exact same damn thing in Iraq... so it is just 50 years since YOU took the billion$ in USD and just look at your foolish jackass comments from your "leaders and your sophmoric and infantile press.

--Though there are a dozen or so members of MECHA who would like that "takeover" part which is not even close to any possibility.--

When the minority is the majority and votes to secede.......which is their right, even tho they don't know history - I wouldn't want to try that in Texas-- I still say make Alberta an offer it can't refuse. And to be the stereotypical Ami, all that lovely oil - 5th largest reserves, IIRC. And they have more in common w/Americans than the frog-like thinking of those who run Canada.

After all, Fox and his minions have said more than once he's the president not only of 100m Mexicans, but the 20 million (descendents are considered Mexican w/voting rights, IIRC) and he hopes they cast their votes w/Mexico in mind.

And how about ending American Chauvinism (sp) in Mexico? A blogger once blogged if we understood what they really say in their papers, we'd put up a wall.

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Djbouti is a hellhole, A LOT is going on there that we don't hear about.

No one really wants to get assigned there, IIRC.

>not virgin seeking immigrant freaks such as those brought into the "eu" for labor and to pump up the vote totals for the imbecile left-wing welfare politicians.

If only they were brought in for labour.

>The 9-11 cowards lived, planned, and carried out the attacks from the cozy base in europe.

Oh yeah, they did not take their flight lessons for months in the US.

>What is it about life in europe that makes those who come seeking your generosity and welfare spend a few years among you and then want to go out and kill all things western? Have you welcomed and charmed these newcomers to your society so much that they then lose their minds? Do you explain the sordid conditions of your cities and economies as being the fault of the jews and the US? Is it THAT which then turns them into virgin seekers so readily?

Well, as you in your enlightenment assume they were not already virgin seekers when they arrived in Europe, I should assume they only turned into such during their stay in the US.

>I really have to laugh at you pathetic assholes- the US re-built Germany and Japan, among others, and created the constitutions and democracies that exist there today.

About the constitutions and democracies you are perfectly right, but the econimic rebuilding was actually done by Germans and Japanese at least I never read anything about Americans coming over and actually working (wouldn't expect that either, cause it's not their business to rebuild what we fucked up). And I really love to remind the few US citizens who are as arrogant as you who build the space program your so proud of.

@pato wrote:
I really have to laugh at you pathetic assholes - the US re-built Germany and Japan, among others, and created the constitutions and democracies that exist there today. Don't offer you child-like explanation with selective memory that you have taken care of that "thank you for assisting us" BS already. It's been just 50 short since the US liberated Europe, it is attempting the exact same damn thing in Iraq... so it is just 50 years since YOU took the billion$ in USD and just look at your foolish jackass comments from your "leaders and your sophmoric and infantile press.

This is the kind of spirit I had suspected behind all of this here. Thank you and please more of these honest and revealing emotions.

@flursn

Ich hab noch nicht genug von VDH gelesen, um mir ein Urteil zu bilden.

Auf jeden Fall wird er wohl als einer der Gurus der konservativen Szene hofiert, wenn man sich die überschwenglichen Kommentare in div. konservativen Blogs zu ihm anschaut.

>Djbouti is a hellhole, A LOT is going on there that we don't hear about.

That and the fact that Mr. Rau was planning to go there should give you an impression of how clueless he is. May be some bright bloke in Germany tried to get rid of him.

NBR: you trotted out a foolish old saw about millions of american being not insured. When i got out of college i was not insured because i made a foolish choice on my own: not signing up for the insurance plan which cost 18 dollars every 2 weeks. Just about everyone else I know right out of University was doing the same thing.
As for all those uninsured people, they benefit from a single payer system assembled by every jurisdiction in the US which puts together medicare, medicaid, municipal funds, and private charity to make it work. But one has to be among the uninsured poor. Simply choosing not to sign up is not an excuse. On my planet we call this an aspect of personal responsibility. Take that away and you end up with social decay.

Proof?: in the US we are not dropping like flies.
If what you say is true we would have the same morbidity rate as sub-saharan africa.

@jens- as usual your reply is void of any fact or relevance. The EU is the full culprit behind WMD proliferation around the world-

the flight lessons were indeed taking in the US and it certainly raised suspicians, thats how we caught the bald headed french wanne be coward.
I think one would have a tough time finding a flgiht simulator within germany that you wouldn't have to deep throat a bj to j fischer to get access to. I know there is one at the Tivoli amusement park in Copenhagen though.


One may wonder as many have, who it was who claimed Madrid was Europe's 9/11?
"No, but it's close: Madrid was Europe's 7-11 — a convenient place to hide and drink pink Slurpees until all the trouble goes away.
And to think how eurocentric al queda has been, you are fools to blame the US-
The eurocentric al queda-
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/883ehetk.asp
The EU is the full culprit behind WMD proliferation around the world-
In 1983, a Dutch court convicted Khan in absentia on charges of stealing the designs, though the conviction was later overturned on a technicality.
Nonetheless, in the late 1980s, Belgian ministers led delegations of scientists and businessmen to Pakistan, despite warnings from their own experts that they were meeting with some people who were involved in the military application of nuclear technology.
That same year, despite U.S. warnings to Germany that such a sale was imminent, a German company exported to Pakistan a plant for the recovery of tritium, a volatile gas used to increase the power of nuclear bombs. The company simply called the plant something else to obtain an export license.
"The export control office didn't even inspect the goods," said Reinhard Hübner, the German prosecutor who handled the subsequent trial of the company's chief, Rudolf Ortmayers, and Peter Finke, a German physicist who went to Pakistan to train engineers there to operate the equipment. Both men were sentenced to jail for violating export control laws.
But there were clues that the technology had spread even further: A German intelligence investigation determined that Iraq and possibly Iran and North Korea had obtained uranium melting know-how stolen from Urenco in 1984, Hibbs reported in Nucleonics Week several years later.
In 1989, two engineers, Bruno Stemmler and Karl Heinz Schaab, who had worked for Germany's MAN New Technology, another Urenco subcontractor, sold complete plans for advanced uranium enrichment centrifuges to Iraq. They traveled to Baghdad to help solve technical problems in making the equipment work.
In 1991, after the first Gulf war, international inspectors were stunned to discover the extent of Saddam Hussein's hidden program. Schaab was later convicted of high treason but only served a little more than a year in jail. Stemmler died before he could be tried.

>you trotted out a foolish old saw about millions of american being not insured. When i got out of college i was not insured because i made a foolish choice on my own: not signing up for the insurance plan which cost 18 dollars every 2 weeks. Just about everyone else I know right out of University was doing the same thing.

btw. there are also people in the EU who are not insured. Just because there is no statistics doesn't mean they don't exist. I remember a case in the Netherlands last year, were an illegal immigrant actually died, because he was refused medical treatment, cause he wasn't insured.

jens-
your socialist systems have been proven to be built on smoke and mirror policies since inception. In the end the US pays far less for ANY insurance for health than those in the EU.
My health is my responsibility, my FULL medical coverage is a tiny 50 U$D per month. That is a FRACTION of what is paid by individuals as a whole in europe through excessive taxation.
As long as your social tax dollars are going to build footbaths for muslims who have to go to german courts (for welfare fraud? theft? rape?)so they do not use the urinals, you will have the same problems for an eternity. Such priorities are a disgrace.
http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1432_A_1109617_1_A,00.html @Jens- rather than you trying for a hip replacement and having to wait MONTHS, why not see if they can pay for a "change of brain replacement" for you?

Jens is the spammer on this site.
Whenever he loses a debate, which is always- he then begins spamming. the timing is surreal.

>@jens- as usual your reply is void of any fact or relevance.

I just replied to a comment full of useless propaganda about staying in Europe turning people into virgin hunters, which seems to be your supply of "fact or relevance".

>The EU is the full culprit behind WMD proliferation around the world

Not THE culprit, one of the culprits. You do not mention (of course) that:
- the Iraqi germ culture to grow anthrax was freely imported from the US military's centre for chemical and biological research at Fort Detrick, Maryland, via civilian laboratories operated by ATCC, the American Type Culture Collection.
- American investigators have established that several shipments of biological material, including 21 batches of anthrax , were licensed for export from the US to Iraq between 1985 and 1988. They were sent to the Ministry of Higher Education and the Ministry of Trade in Baghdad

So, I'm not at all trying to clean the EU record on this and definitely the German one, because Germanys contribution was a major one, though, claiming it was only us, is a bit, well, cheeky?

Well, Jens, how do you keep a devistated people busy??? Building things, a stake in their future. It wouldn't have made sense for us to do it for you.

So, I know franken never repaid their portion of The Marshall loan, did Germany?

>your socialist systems have been proven to be built on smoke and mirror policies since inception.

Actually it's not my, thanks god.

>In the end the US pays far less for ANY insurance for health than those in the EU.
My health is my responsibility, my FULL medical coverage is a tiny 50 U$D per month. That is a FRACTION of what is paid by individuals as a whole in europe through excessive taxation.

Good for you and I mean that.

>As long as your social tax dollars are going to build footbaths for muslims who have to go to german courts (for welfare fraud? theft? rape?)so they do not use the urinals, you will have the same problems for an eternity. Such priorities are a disgrace.
http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1432_A_1109617_1_A,00.html

>@Jens- rather than you trying for a hip replacement and having to wait MONTHS, why not see if they can pay for a "change of brain replacement" for you?

Well, to hold the "facts" you present a very tiny one would do. Still prefer to use the one I'm equipped with.

As to health care, read Marginal Revolutions health archives. A 2000 study told you who the uninsured were then, and it applies now. Even moreso, since people are starting their own companies like gangbusters in the US of A. Tyler Cowen's an economist, lots of interesting stuff at his blog.

Bill Hobbs is putting the info together on LLCs.

And he posted this today:

"I received an email incquiry from a research assistant working for a very well-known and influential group of economists asking me to forward to this organization of notable economists every scrap of data I've collected on what looks to be a nationwide trend of record-setting formation of limited liability companies - a preferred business structure for small businesses and entrepreneurial start-ups - nationwide. Naturally, I forwarded them the data - and will continue to do so as I gather it from other states. I'll keep you posted..."

We're starting to cook again, small business owners are the backbone of the US (they pay 2/3rd of the taxes, check out Subchapter S corps) and what makes us successful AND they're a good portion of the uninsured - 20-somethings++ making $50K+++ and over. Which means down the road, tax policy will be "simplified" because all these people are finally realizing the hurdles put in place by tax policy.

And now they have to pay both sides of social security.

They CHOOSE not to have HC at this time. However, they might have catastrophic insurance and if young and healthy pay for the basics out of pocket. A HC revolution's coming to America.

>Jens is the spammer on this site.
Whenever he loses a debate, which is always- he then begins spamming. the timing is surreal.

This is not only (deleted) ridiculous, but insulting and stupid. I'm neither losing a debate, not even trying to win. I'm as (deleted) off by the spammer as you. Though I'm not as fast as you in blaiming others.
(deleted)

@"no comment", you wanna evidence for Chomsky's or Sontags lies and distortions? Try Telepolis, ZMag, IndyMedia, Democratic Underground, their lies are repeated all over those places.

Joscka, I don't know if it's true that Jens is spamming (or do you mean in the sense of dumping his mindless thoughts here?), but it's true for sure that he loses every debate he engages into. Only bad thing about that is that he refuses to draw any consequences.

I admire jens for his desire to engage in debate and conversation on these huge issues facing the planet. That is what makes this site such a great one.
But yes, Jen's offense or defense of arguements truly have no substance or fact.
But you got to like the kid trying anyway.

Well Jens, at least I am sure it isn't you.
And I will say that Josca's comments about you are correct in other regards.
I also admire the fact that you are defending your homeland, and that you stand up for your ideals even though they need some re-shaping in order to truly bring peace and stability to your country and the planet.
I wish more germans would post in english so we can communicate better and get all the talk on the table. I speak 3 different languages myself, but none of them being german unfortunately.
Regardless of what you read in the german press- the german friendship between the US is NON-existant at this time, and any previous "alliance" between the countires is truly finishewd for the balance of our lives.
The US has no reason whatsoever to keep her troops on german soil. It is time for the germans to let them leave, and enough of the tears for the farwell from the locals.
The only time the US will "help" you again is when we selfishly come to germany to kick out the beurs that have overtaken your nuke plants.

Joe wrote: NBR: you trotted out a foolish old saw about millions of american being not insured.

*shrug*. It was not me, I merely quoted from sources like these.

From Tom Daschle's website: "Over 41.2 million Americans lacked health insurance in 2001, three percent more than in 2000. At some point during the past two years, 75 million Americans were without coverage."

http://daschle.senate.gov/uninsured.html

From the United States Republican Policy Committee: "Estimates indicate the Democrats' bill would have canceled coverage for 1.8 million Americans, adding them to the 44.3 million who lack health insurance."/

http://rpc.senate.gov/~rpc/releases/1999/hc100599.htm

hey you guys-
Tom Daschle is a flip flopping and waffling idiot who is senator from a state which has more deer than people in it's population. He speaks only for them.
His voice is wrong and means nothing in the US.
the HUGE majority of those without health care in the US are simply living here illegally.

Sandy wrote: So, I know franken never repaid their portion of The Marshall loan, did Germany?

The loan part was the smaller (216 million), most of Marshall came as a grant.

And while incoming Marshall-money never made up more than 5% of the GNP, the backflow of reparation-money towards the US was significantly higher than the incoming Marshall-money.

Not that these facts shall deter Pato from his insults.

So I take that's a no and we're not supposed to say anything because of trade???? (I wonder how many US workers were let go because of outsourcing???)

Even Chrysler had to pay their loan back. Geez, look at the IMF and Argentina.

We paid some of Marshall back AFAIK.

And it's not nice to apparently forgive a debt to a friend and then come running decades later, saying it ain't so.

The Iraqis might wonder how serious we mean it when we all forgive some of their debts these days. :-)

The bastards aren't promised 72 virgins, they're promised 72 raisins.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,631332,00.html

And yes, I do think it would be nice to be able to read some German, so that I don't have to use one of those crappy translation sites in order to follow the discussion here.

I am not sure why some of the comments about rebuild Germany were made. I would like to point out some historical facts about rebuilding Germany. Actually it was more than Germany that was rebuild. It was most of Western Europe. And of course the US did not rebuild Germany. The Germans did. That was one of the principle reasons behind the Marshall Plan.

The United States offered up to $20 billion for relief, but only if the European nations could get together and draw up a rational plan on how they would use the aid. For the first time, they would have to act as a single economic unit; they would have to cooperate with each other. Marshall also offered aid to the Soviet Union and its allies in Eastern Europe, but Stalin denounced the program as a trick and refused to participate. The Russian rejection probably made passage of the measure thought the US Congress possible.

That $20 billion would be more than $110 billion dollars today. At the time it represented more than a third of the entire budget of the US.

The Marshall Plan led to the Schuman Plan, which in turn led to Euratom, then the Coal and Iron Community and the Common Market, and the European Union and pointed to what may yet evolve into an economically and politically united Europe.

Now for some empirical but subjective data. I do not think anyone would disagree that there was a huge difference between East Germany and West Germany. Much of this difference can be directly related to how the US treated West Germany and how the Russians treated East Germany.

Criticism of the Marshall Plan became prominent among historians of the revisionist school during the 1960s and 1970s. They argued that the plan was American economic imperialism, and that it was an attempt to gain control over Western Europe just as the Soviets controlled Eastern Europe.

Probably much of what we now disagree about is this revisionism. I fear much of this is now what is considered to be the truth about the Marshall Plan.

I guess I should add some personal opinions about this. Americans of my generation do not really know much about the Marshall Plan. We think of it as a plan which helped rebuild Europe, and stopped Commumism. So it accomplished many things. For the US it made us feel as if we were doing good things and it added to our protection.

Here is where I get a bit confused and also a bit frustrated. I would think that the Germans would also think the Marshall Plan was a good thing too as it reduced the time it took them to get back on their feet. I would hope and had hoped that now Germany given her status and wealth would repay this same act by helping more in Iraq than it has. This would give the German people the same sense of feeling good about themselves that Americans have as well as adding to their own protection.

I am personally willing to accept the idea that there is a large pool of anti Americaism in Europe and in Germany. Fortunately, that is not the attitude that exists in the US toward Euorpe. What I do not understand is the attitude toward the people of Iraq.

My comments on this and the fight against terror I shallsave for another time.

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