« Israel: No Right To Self-Defense? | Main | Amerikanski - A New Site / Amerikanski - Eine neue Site »

Comments

"So since there's absolutely nothing to lose by getting Yassin, and something to possibly gain -- at least temporarily derailing the Hamas leadership structure, and hopefully weakening it long-term -- so why not go ahead and do it?"

hmmm- was für eine zynische Überlegung. "Totschiessen, weil schaden kanns ja nicht". Es fehlt die -Fähigkeit zur Selbstkritik vorraussetzende- Frage danach, wie man den Einfluss der Hamas auf die palästinensiche Bevölkerung grundsätzlich unterbinden könnte, um das Problem bei der Wurzel zu packen und nicht immer nur die Symptome zu behandeln, dazu wäre die Meinung des "man on the street" wirklich interessant zu erfahren.
Das ist letzendlich die Krux an Sharons Politik: er hat keinerlei Visionen, er agiert immer nur von Moment zu Moment. Yassins Exekution wird die Lage der israelischen Bevölkerung nicht wirklich verbessern.

Joaninho, it's good to get an inside view from an Israeli who had suffered from this spiral of violence for so long.

You are an Israeli, aren't you?

Um, flursn, joaninho didn't write the article, he just made a comment criticizing it. Or were you being sarcastic?

Das ist letzendlich die Krux an Sharons Politik: er hat keinerlei Visionen, er agiert immer nur von Moment zu Moment. Yassins Exekution wird die Lage der israelischen Bevölkerung nicht wirklich verbessern.

That is the crux of the piece. All the visions have been tried, and every one of them resulted in Palestinians killing Jews and Europeans cheering. Not all Europeans, but enough vocal ones to notice.

Over the years: Israel built water supplies and electrical distribution systems, and Palestinians killed Jews. Israel made special attempts to include Arabs in its educational and political systems, and Palestinians killed Jews. International politics generated agreements which were solemnly agreed to, and Palestinians killed Jews. Israel invaded Lebanon, and Palestinians killed Jews. Israel withdrew from Lebanon, and Palestinians killed Jews. Finally Israel signed Oslo, giving up huge amounts of its own security in return for minimal concessions, and Palestinians declared the Intifada and started killing Jews with greater vigor.

There aren't any more visions. They've all been used up, and the result has been that -- Palestinians kill Jews, and encourage one another to do more of it. When all the visions have passed, the film burned, and the projector-lamp smashed, moment to moment is what they've got.

Regards,
Ric Locke

As Glenn Reynolds put it lately, one must even ask the question whether Palestinians deserve what they already got.

Kid Charlemagne, yes, I was being sarcastic. I know he's not an Israeli because even the most lunatic Israeli would not write such nonsense in the face of weekly attacks on civilians. Only a Western European citizen having lived comfy for his whole life can suggest that Israelis try different measures "um das Problem bei der Wurzel zu packen und nicht immer nur die Symptome zu behandeln".

Es ist doch eine Diskussion wert, ob der finale Todesschuß zur Gefahrenabwehr gegenüber Terroristen gerechtfertigt ist. Hier geht es um die ultima ratio.

Daß man noch immer auf der Ebene denkt, Wurzel des Terrors sei die Armut oder die Besatzung, finde ich unglaublich.

Wer Sharon verurteilt, ohne den Terror als das eigentliche Problem auszumachen, hat den Terror nicht verstanden und spielt ihm in die Hand. Er wird zum Handlager des Terrors.

And now for a reality check from the other side. Take a look at Juan Cole's opinions about Sharon and the Yassin killing.

http://www.juancole.com/

>Daß man noch immer auf der Ebene denkt, Wurzel des Terrors sei die Armut oder die Besatzung, finde ich unglaublich.

Armut ist nicht die Wurzel, aber diejenigen die dadurch an der Macht bleiben, wie z.B. Arafat, benutzen sie sehr effektiv für ihre Zwecke. Deshalb ist Bekämpfung von Armut auch eher aussichtslos, wenn man nicht deren Wurzel bekämpft: korrupte Regimes, die sich nur durch Armut, die sie auf andere schieben, an der Macht halten können.

Palästinensische Trauerfeier: Vermummte Kämpfer salutieren, reißen ihre Waffen hoch, kreischen Todesdrohungen gegen Israel - das sollte man mal in den Medien zeigen, nicht nur für eine Sekunde. Das ist die Wirklichkeit dort - jeden Tag. Eine ganze Gesellschaft voller Haß gleich nebenan. Wer nicht mitmacht, wird getötet. Wie soll man da hoffen, daß sich die gemäßigten Kräfte durchsetzen? Unsere europäische Untätigkeit verlängert diesen Konflikt. Es ist eine gewaltbereite, manipulierte Masse unterstützt von unserer gewaltlosen manipulierten Masse. Zusammen ist das eine unendliche Kraft, die mich sehr sorgt.

Gary Kamiya has a pretty balanced essay about a recent trip to Israel & Palestine at www.salon.com. One has trouble imagining the daily grind of living on either side of the dividing wall in this fight. As an American, it is a strange sensation to read that, in spite of all the let-downs and our obvious loyalty to Israel, many Palestinians are still looking to America to help resolve the situation. This has to be our top priority after the election now that we've dealt with Afghanistan and Iraq. I think that the Geneva Accord is a workable plan --probably the only plan that can work.

Walls can be moved and removed, almost over night. Ask any German.

Karl B., the only workable plan for Israel vs. the Arabs remains what it always has been: the "Iron Wall" formulated by Vladimir Jabotinsky some eighty years ago.

The conflict is not about land, at least not primarily.

Read

Palestine Is Our Land And The Jews Are Our Dogs

and

Nathan Weinstock on Marx, the Arab-Jewish Conflict, and Lazy Thinking

to gain a better understanding.

The Arab psyche is a toxic waste dump. It will take decades to clean it up.

Read this article. When Al-jazeera helps to spread lies, how shall there be a way out of hatred? How shall the Arabic world knows the truth? I find it so disappointing.

Israel 'fabricated' child-bomber story
by Khalid Amayreh in the West Bank
Thursday 25 March 2004 12:38 PM GMT


Israel tries to portray Palestinians as child killers


Palestinian leaders have accused Israel of fabricating a story about a 14-year-old Palestinian boy who planned to blow himself up.

The Israeli army said he was caught wearing an explosive belt at an army roadblock in the northern West Bank.

The boy, identified as Husam Abdu from Nablus, was shown on TV screens around the world, with an explosive belt strapped to his waist.

The Israeli army said the boy told interrogators that his dispatchers promised that he would have sex with 72 virgins in heaven soon after his death.

"We know for sure this is a fabricated story from A to Z. Would you believe that a 13 or 14-year old would agree to blow up himself in return for a hundred shekels which he would receive after his death?

"It seems to me that the Israelis are bad liars as well," said Yaqub Shahin, a director-general of the Palestinian Authority ministry of information.

Painting a 'terrorist' picture

In an interview with Aljazeera.net, Shahin accused Israel of seeking to justify slaughtering Palestinian children by spreading the false impression that they are used as human bombers.

"Their [Israel’s] goal is to besmirch Palestinian childhood so that when they slaughter the children, the world won’t feel sorry for them," he said.

Arab Knesset member Muhammad Baraka has also voiced "serious doubts" about the veracity of the Israeli narrative.

"I have very serious doubts about the whole story. I can't give the Israeli army the benefit of the doubt."


Israelis have killed 263 children
under 14 in the Intifada

However, Baraka urged all parties to "keep children away from this sinister and bloody conflict.

"Using children as bombs is infinitely diabolical. It is totally inconsistent with all religious, moral and human values."

Fatah denial

The armed wing of Fatah, the Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, has denied any involvement in the incident, accusing Israel of "concocting the whole story for the purpose of justifying the killing of more Palestinian children".

The Israeli newspaper Yedeot Ahranot reported on Thursday that Abdu told Shin Beth interrogators that an anonymous person had promised him 100 shekels if he blew himself up in the midst of Israeli soldiers.

Samir Khiwairah, a Nablus journalist who personally knows the boy’s family, told Aljazeera.net that the boy’s mental capacity to distinguish things is very low.

"I don't completely rule out the possibility that some evil person gave him the explosive belt and told him he would become a hero ... but this is a very tiny possibility."

Khiwairah said the Israeli army had a history of "fabricating and concocting stories" for the purpose of vilifying the Palestinians and winning public relations points.

Similar story

A few weeks ago, another boy from Nablus, Muhammad Kuraan, made headlines when the Israeli army presented him to the media as a child who had been dispatched to blow himself up at an Israeli roadblock.


Palestinian children climb over
the rubble of a demolished house

However, when the boy returned home, he reportedly told his family and relatives "Jews told me to do this or else they would kill me."

Aljazeera.net asked the Israeli army spokesman in Tel Aviv to explain why Abdu would accept 100 shekels to get blown up and what good the money could possibly do?

The army was also asked to explain why it had TV cameras ready at the roadblock more than two hours before the event.

Despite two hours of waiting, the army failed to provide an answer.

Child-killing

The controversy of using children in the Israeli-Palestinian strife underscores the brazen ugliness of the conflict.

According to human rights groups operating in the occupied territories, the Israeli army has killed hundreds of Palestinian children since the outbreak of the Palestinian Intifada more than three and a half years ago.

According to a spokeswoman for the East Jerusalem-based Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group (HRMG), the Israeli army and paramilitary Jewish settlers have killed 263 Palestinian children from age 0-14 and 236 minors from the age of 15-18 during the ongoing Intifada.

The total number of Palestinians killed by Israel since the outbreak of the Intifada is estimated at 2670.

The figures for the injured and maimed are believed to be in the thousands.

The number of Israelis killed by Palestinians during the same period is around 838, including soldiers, settlers and civilians.

Israel claims its army does not target Palestinian civilians deliberately but admits, rather grudgingly, that the killing is carried out knowingly.

However, human rights groups argue forcefully that, in the final analysis, killing knowingly is killing deliberately.


Aljazeera
By Khalid Amayreh in the West Bank

You can find this article at:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8C7BCBC3-CA2C-4F33-B27D-80AF0AF830E2.htm



tictoc wrote:

The Arab psyche is a toxic waste dump.

Isn't such a sentence a dangerous racist generalization?
Replace "Arab" with another ethnic minority and it might become more clear.

FKANB:

Bite me.

Also, drop the condescending tone. I do not need a personal "political correctness" nanny.

I already gave two references to back up my generalization.

Can you present references showing that Icelanders or Philipinos or Ethiopians are equally seething with hatred as Arabs?

[crickets...]

Thought so.

However, I will gladly supply additional references in the event that you read both articles that I linked to above and want more evidence.

tic toc,

I'll take a look at those cites. There was a sobering interview with Benny Morris at Henryk Broder's website recently:

http://www.henryk-broder.de/html/fremd.html?a=1

So, yes, a wall may be inevitable until (if ever) the Palestinians and other Arabs fully accept Israel's right to exist. It just needs to be closer to the '67 line.

I spend a fair bit of time reading Arab websites from Al Ahram and Al Hayat to Al Jazeera (none related to Al Gore), and one really does have the sense that a paranoid and psychotic mindset holds sway in large parts of the Arab world.
Look at all the clerics preaching death and destruction in the mosques. Look at all the absurd conspiracy theories. The shi'a leader Sadr in Iraq was quoted recently as calling 9-11 a "miracle".

None of this releives us of the duty to assist the establishment of a Palestinian state along the borders of 1967, but I for one have no illusions about what will happen after that.

Karl B.,

I'm sorry, I should have explained that the "Iron Wall" of Jabotinsky is a mindset, not a physical structure.

In essence, it means that Israel must continue projecting strength and must hang tough for the indefinite future... until that day comes when the Arabs and Moslems come to terms with the reality of Israel's existence.

The actual security fence being built by Israel can be pulled back or dismantled in the future.

Regarding the establisment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, I no longer consider this a realistic scenario. This was tied to specific conditions (renouncing terror, replacing the corrupt and terroristic leadership, ending incitement ...), none of which have been met.

As long as the majority of the Palestinians continue to desire the destruction of Israel, it makes no sense to give them a sovereign state. Even with the best of intentions and good neighborly relations, it would be very difficult to find a way to co-exist. There simply isn't enough land to go around.

In my opinion, it is time to consider something else. Not expulsion of the Arabs from the West Bank and annexation of the land by Israel, but some kind of re-integration into Jordan. I know, the King of Jordan does not want this. But my point is, Palestinians deserve the chance to live in dignity like everybody else.

Forming a terror-promoting state in the West Bank and Gaza, however, is not an essential human right. "Palestinians" (i.e., in current usage people who claim descent from people living between the Mediterranean and the river Jordan in 1948) already are two-thirds or more of the Jordanian population.

I don't see a way to leave Jordan out of the equation. If Israelis must not rule over a soon-to-be majority population of Palestinians, then why should the Hashemites of Jordan continue their minority rule forever?

@tictoc

I don't care what you need. I'll make comments whenever I see blatant generalizations about ethnic minorites like your "The Arab psyche is a toxic waste dump."

And when I asked you to fill in another ethnic minority, you come up with Icelanders or Ethiopians - trying to be funny, uh, or how many stereotypes do you know about Icelanders? How large is the ethnic minority of Icelanders in the US or Germany anyways? Try blacks or hispanics for a change.

"Ethnic minority"?

There are 250 million Arabs in the Middle East.

Five million Jews. A few Assyrians, Druze and other smaller minorities.

FYI, Mr. Formerly Known as Norbert Blüm:

Generalizations are one of the elements that separate humans from the rest of the animal kingdom. Without generalizations, there would be no science. No washing machines, no automobiles and no Internet.

Most readers of this blog are thankfully free of multicultural happy talk and self-delusion. You, apparently, are not.

A little postscript (not addressed at the time-waster FKANB).

In Iraq, a local man approached a U.S. newspaper reporter and told him, "A thousand years ago, we kept the light of civilization when you were mired in the Dark Ages. Now, it is your turn. We cannot save ourselves from despotism and need your help. You must repay the debt."

I agree with this Iraqi man.

More on majority v. minority in the Middle East (Shockwave required).

The comments to this entry are closed.

Our Mission

The Debate

Blog powered by Typepad

May 2014

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
        1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30 31