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Fatwa in 3- 2 - 1. No lie, there is/was a 1-800-Fatwa # in Canada, I believe. LGF had the link.

He'd better get out while he can.

Mosques are arms depots. If you don't start treating them as such, you're going to be in big trouble.

You should also link to the 1000 Styles of Rumsfeld.

http://www.maxeiner-miersch.de/standp2004-02-04a.htm

Islam und Gewalt

@Sandy wrote Mosques are arms depots. If you don't start treating them as such, you're going to be in big trouble.

Lovely. Over a billion Muslim believers and you equate their whorshipping places with arms depots. I think you should be appointed the "winning the hearts and minds-minister".

May I watch from the sidelines when you run your Crusade against entire Islam?

Joe mentioned earlier in an IMO derailed rant that Germans are heading in their current problems like Arabs into a hardcore anti-Americanism-blame and I only had laughed at it. While IMO America-criticism is really just surface-yapping against "big buddy US" (a bit more complex than this - but too lengthy now) and will turn around in a few weeks some day again (like a big event needed, elections, French pissing us off, etc.), the real dangers in the future also with growing terrorism will lie in Xenophobia against "the muslim bogeyman".

Look at the recent PEW-study (yeah, yeah, I know Albright chairs it - get over it, you conservatives):
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=206

At the bottom right is a field "Muslims". Germans view Muslims by 14 percent-points more unfavourable than our US-counterparts view Muslims. I believe that. And we didn't even have a big terror-attack yet. (But pre-emptive hint to Americans: This doesn't mean anything with "Nazi" is ahead - only that the future challenges will definitely be in finding ways to arrange ourselves and accept/assimilate our own Muslim minorities here - relations and current dissent with American administrations are a piece of cake compared to this, also due to our shared Western values)

"Lovely. Over a billion Muslim believers and you equate their worshipping places with arms depots. I think you should be appointed the ’winning the hearts and minds-minister.’"

I have to agree with Oberl. Klink on this one. I used to have a book published by the anti-Catholic movement in the U.S. in the 1850’s that claimed that Catholic churches were secret arms depots. If you actually read the Koran, I’ll be the first to agree that it’s pretty scary. Then again, there are some pretty scary things in the Bible, too. For example, Jesus said he came not to bring peace, but a sword, and to set brother against brother and father against son. We saw what could happen when the Bible was interpreted literally ("Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live") in the Middle Ages, when hundreds of thousands of innocent women were murdered, and in the horrors of the Inquisition and the persecution of the Jews. Some Muslim countries seem intolerant and barbarous in our time , but barbarism and intolerance are not essential traits of Islam. When the Jews were expelled from Spain, they were gladly taken in by the Ottoman Sultan, head of one of the most devoutly religious Muslim regimes that ever existed. Muslim civilisation during the Middle Ages was more advanced than that of Europe in many ways. Religions, including Islam, aren’t going away any time soon. We will have to live with them. The best we can do is emphasize their positive aspects, and discourage the negative. I think that, to a large extent, this has already been accomplished with Christianity, thanks to the efforts of many great men and women, some of them devoutly religious themselves. Obviously, when it comes to Islam, some of its adherents seem to be having a harder time escaping the Middle Ages. I’m still not convinced that they never will. We need to fight for democracy and secular government in Muslim countries, resist the tyranny of the Islamic regimes in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia, and emphasize the fact that Mohammed was himself very progressive for his time, and would hardly have approved making time stand still in the seventh century. Finally, we need to emphasize something that Jesus, also a Muslim prophet, told his disciples: "By their fruit shall ye know them." Even the most devout Muslims can see that the conditions of life in Western democracies are much better than in the Islamic regimes. The flow of immigration demonstrates that. The ignominious defeats suffered by Moslems at the hands of the vastly outnumbered Israelis, not to mention the long list of military debacles for Islam dating back to the siege of Vienna in 1683, the Battle of Lepanto, and the victory of the Spanish Reconquista in 1492 should suggest to even the most fanatic Muslim that, if theirs is really the true religion, there is something seriously wrong with their interpretation of it. We need to emphasize these things, and continue to fight for modernism and secular government in the Muslim world. Plan B is a return to the Crusades. Maybe it will eventually come to that, but I hope not.

We need to emphasize these things, and continue to fight for modernism and secular government in the Muslim world. Plan B is a return to the Crusades. Maybe it will eventually come to that, but I hope not

I'd like to know what "fight for modernism" means.

@flursn

"I'd like to know what "fight for modernism" means."

I don't like the term "modernism," either, but used it for lack of anything better. In this case I mean turning away from rigid interpretation of religious dogma. Applied to Islam it implies the rejection of Sharia and religious texts as a basis for the law in a "modern" state.

That's not what I meant, nor is it what you've written initially. It reads We need to emphasize these things, and continue to fight for modernism and secular government in the Muslim world.

Do you mean that we, the Westerners, need to fight for the rejection of Sharia and religious texts as a basis for the law in a "modern" state., or do you mean that the citizens of Arab and Persian Muslim states need to fight for the rejection of Sharia and religious texts as a basis for the law in a "modern" state.?

Actually, you've already answered that question. In this case I mean turning away from rigid interpretation of religious dogma. So how should that work? Regime change? Trade boycots? Or patience? (Which is not what you implied by using the term fight.)

Anyway, if you meant that it were indeed us who need to encourage turning away from rigid interpretation of religious dogma, I strongly encourage you to read Arab newspapers (in the English translation). Infering from what they write your proposal has already been rejected. Most Arab states simply do not want to turn away from rigid interpretation of religious dogma.

Also, you write there's need for change in the Muslim world. Actually, many backwards thinking Muslims already are among us. Think about the Anatolyan immigrants in major German cities. They must not be confused with secular and enlightened Istanbul metropolitans who you will encounter rarely in a Mosque. (Sidenote to Klink: No, Mosques are not worshipping places for Muslims. The Muslim congregation does not require their folks to visit buildings to make a connection with God, they can pray anywhere they like.) So I'd say we should start right in front of our own doors when we want to challenge Muslim fanaticism.

http://www.welt.de/data/2004/03/27/256507.html

Dann ergeben wir uns doch einfach!
Mit Demutsgesten und Rückzugsgedanken ist den islamistischen Apokalyptikern nicht beizukommen

von Leon de Winter

Es ist ein weit verbreiteter Gedanke, dass sozioökonomische Deprivation und fehlende Zukunftsperspektiven die Triebfedern für den islamistischen Extremismus seien. Wenn das so wäre, müsste ein Großteil der Weltbevölkerung in einem fort Anschläge verüben und sich in unseren Vorgärten in die Luft jagen. Die Praxis lehrt freilich etwas anderes: Die Attentäter sind in erster Linie islamistische Glaubensfanatiker.

...

Bin Ladens Welt und die der Islamisten erstreckt sich über den Tod hinaus. Für sie wird eine Apokalypse am Ende die Trennung zwischen Leben und Tod und Himmel und Erde aufheben, die Gläubigen belohnen und eine irdische Ewigkeit schaffen. Bis es dazu kommt, ist die Welt Schauplatz gewaltsamer Auseinandersetzungen zwischen Gläubigen und Ungläubigen. Deren Ergebnis steht fest: Die Gläubigen werden siegen, und der Sieg wird die Überlegenheit des Islam beweisen, da der Islam überlegen ist. So lautet der Zirkelschluss, der das Wesen des Islamismus ausmacht.

Wann sind die Islamisten denn zufrieden? EU-Kommissionspräsident Romano Prodi erklärte nach dem Madrider Massenmord: "Es ist klar, dass der Kampf gegen den Terrorismus nicht mit Gewalt gewonnen wird." Im Geiste Prodis könnten wir folgendermaßen vorgehen: Zunächst einmal machen die Franzosen ihr Kopftuchverbot rückgängig, und wir lassen europäische Moslems, wenn sie Wert darauf legen, nach den Regeln der Scharia leben. Darüber hinaus könnten auch wir uns den Regeln der traditionellen Scharia unterwerfen und als Dhimmis, geduldete Ungläubige, und Bürger zweiter Klasse unter islamischer Führung leben.


Wenn wir dann auch noch Israel auflösen und die Juden liebevoll in unserer Mitte aufnehmen, haben wir uns der Entsprechung von Bin Ladens Wünschen schon ein gehöriges Stück genähert. Ein glorreiches islamisches Reich wird erstrahlen, und der Herr wird zufrieden von Seinem himmlischen Thron auf uns herabblicken.

Charakteristisch für diese Haltung ist die Reaktion der spanischen Bevölkerung. Alles lieber als die Wahrheit. Lass uns um Himmels willen von einer anderen Welt träumen, die wir verstehen können. Einer Welt, in der wir einfach auf einen erkennbaren Schurken zeigen können, der uns vertraut ist, einen verlogenen Politiker, einen dummen "trigger-happy"-Cowboy, republikanische Millionäre, die um des Öls willen einen irrsinnigen Krieg anzetteln. Wenn Ministerpräsident Aznar nicht getan hätte, was er getan hat, wären all die Opfer von Madrid noch am Leben. Oder wenn die Amerikaner nicht im Irak eingefallen wären, hätten die Opfer unversehrt ihre Bahnfahrt beenden können. Oder wenn die Amerikaner nicht in Cowboymanier auf den 11. September reagiert und zum Sturm auf Afghanistan geblasen hätten, wären die Opfer heil an ihrem Ziel angekommen. Es ist verständlich, dass die Spanier so denken. Denn Europäer sind außer Stande, das apokalyptische Wesen des Islamismus zu erfassen.


Also versuchen wir weiterhin krampfhaft und verzweifelt, sozioökonomische Erklärungen für die islamistischen Massenmorde zu finden, um nur ja nicht denken zu müssen, dass wir nur leben können, wenn wir selbst töten.


Aus dem Niederländischen von Hanni Ehlers.


Artikel erschienen am 27. März 2004


--whorshipping--

Freudian slip or 1/2 of a typo?


--May I watch from the sidelines when you run your Crusade against entire Islam?--

Nope, no one's sitting this one out. Which is what we've been trying to tell you for 2 1/2 years.

And when it gets too hot to store stuff in other places, just where do you think ammo will be stored?

Renounce Islam - you're dead. It was spread by the sword. Since I'm an American, I'm not good on history, but I don't seem to recall Christianity being spread at the point of a sword for a few centuries - I seem to remember being fed to the lions.

There is a website out there, but I haven't bookmarked it of muslims who have left their faith.

You should find it and read.

And of course, OK, you'll be high-tailing it over to Amazon to purchase the new book which postulates that the Crusades were defensive in nature, not offensive?

Just so you can fisk it? Or to compare and contrast between the book and the movie that Ridley Scott(?) is coming out with???

@Sandy P.
Freudian slip or 1/2 of a typo?

Neither. Was a lack of proper English skills, I must confess. (Really no H? Darn, who would have thought! *g*)

Renounce Islam - you're dead. It was spread by the sword. Since I'm an American, I'm not good on history, but I don't seem to recall Christianity being spread at the point of a sword for a few centuries - I seem to remember being fed to the lions.

And of course, OK, you'll be high-tailing it over to Amazon to purchase the new book which postulates that the Crusades were defensive in nature, not offensive?

Just so you can fisk it? Or to compare and contrast between the book and the movie that Ridley Scott(?) is coming out with???

My posting was at your blatant generalization - imagine there's a Muslim reading along.

And ehm - what is your point? You talk like the Oracle of Delphi and I am out of the loop. What is why on Amazon and why I should compare one book (the new Bible or why the emphasis on a single book?) to a Hollywood-movie and give lots of credence to either?

Christians have been a strong and determined force of expansion (European settlement on the Northern American continent as a recent example. Just kidding.) and the Crusades were a shameful episode in many ways, an aberration of the true Christian spirit.

Which does not mean that Muslims were innocent either, but that comes second. Like how I critizise Bush for Guantanamo - of course, Guanatanmo is much better than anything back in Afghanistan or Saddam, but I hold things to _our_ moral standards. A comparison to the likes of "But hey, we are STILL so much better than THEY" accompanied with tedious listings of who is why better is morally very wrong and also btw un-Christian.

@gabi

Danke - ein wenig einseitiger Kommentar. Wie Leon de Winter aus Prodi's Kommentar "man kann nicht mit Gewalt gewinnen" die Schlussfolgerung zieht, daß nun die Sharia eingeführt werden soll, ist mir ein wenig verborgen geblieben. Wenn man umgekehrt scheinbar denkt, daß alleinig Gewalt gegen Muslime die Lösung ist, dann hat man endlose Blutbäder vor sich.

Leon schreibt weiter: Es ist ein weit verbreiteter Gedanke, dass sozioökonomische Deprivation und fehlende Zukunftsperspektiven die Triebfedern für den islamistischen Extremismus seien. Wenn das so wäre, müsste ein Großteil der Weltbevölkerung in einem fort Anschläge verüben und sich in unseren Vorgärten in die Luft jagen. Die Praxis lehrt freilich etwas anderes: Die Attentäter sind in erster Linie islamistische Glaubensfanatiker.

Sehr witzig: Er verneint erst jeden Gedanken, daß bestimmte Argumente die Motivation für Fanatismus sein könnte, biete aber selber null eigene Argumente im letzten Satz, obwohl er ja ein Argument indirekt ankündigt "Praxis lehrt anders: ".

Wachen also eines Morgens einfach als Fanatiker auf, oder wie? Oder kam da noch was in dem von Dir weggelassenen Teil? (Ich hab keine WELT-Registrierung)

Hamas z.B. profitiert sehr wohl von den ökonomischen Problemen unter den Palästinensern (zum Teil leider gewollt bzw. hausgemacht von der unfähigen palästinensischen Führung) und Osama profitierte sehr wohl von der bizarren Doppelmoral der saudischen Führung - wieviele der Attentäter kaman denn aus SA?

Natürlich fallen Fanatiker nicht vom Himmel, sondern deren Aufhetzer profitieren selbstverständlichen von bestimmten Klimata und nutzen dies als Propaganda, um die Jugend zu indoktrinieren. Jegliche äussere Einflüsse zu verneinen ist doch Unfug.

zwischen der christlichen welt und der muslimischen welt hat es schon viele kriege gegeben. dies ist eine neue runde..und wir sollten besser gewinnen.

Sehr witzig: Er verneint erst jeden Gedanken, daß bestimmte Argumente die Motivation für Fanatismus sein könnte, biete aber selber null eigene Argumente im letzten Satz, obwohl er ja ein Argument indirekt ankündigt "Praxis lehrt anders: ". Wachen also eines Morgens einfach als Fanatiker auf, oder wie? Oder kam da noch was in dem von Dir weggelassenen Teil?

Sagen Sie, stellen Sie sich jetzt absichtlich blöd? Leon de Winter hat es geschrieben: Die Attentäter sind in erster Linie islamistische Glaubensfanatiker.

Reicht Ihnen das nicht als Motivation? Also nochmal in aller Deutlichkeit: der Fanatismus radikaler Muslime speist sich direkt aus einer radikalen Auslegung des Islam. Ähnliches hatten wir ja bereits zur Zeit der christlichen Kreuzfahrer. Niemand wird abstreiten, dass diese damaligen "Christen" bestimmte Bibelstellen so ausgelegt haben, dass (1) die Juden Jesu Mörder waren und aus Jerusalem vertrieben werden müssen, und (2) Gottes Wille, nämlich die Christianisierung der Menschheit, auch gegenüber Ungläubigen, also Muslimen, mit dem Schwert durchgesetzt werden muss. Wo liegt also das Problem, alleinig diese Motive auch den radikalien Muslimen zuzuschreiben?

Ach so, ich weiss - jede negative Bewertung von Muslimen ist ja Rassismus in Ihren Augen.

This may help in explaining the german paralyzation of the 21st century and the subsequent shrinking of minds. Please have a look at these photos-
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/
This is NOT "fringe opinion" here in the US- neither france or germany are allies of the US. This will be proved even more over the next 8 months. Bush will win and the US public will leave germany and france to fend for themselves. Again your flattery pumping up your self-worth is amusing to say the least.
The majority of US people are aware of the "eu's" perfidy and hypocrisy, the other US minions will have the picture painted for them shortly. The US population is simply shocked at the "eu's" bumbling, the oil scams, the anti-semitism, the toxic anti-americanism, the french exercises with china, the desired german plutonium plant sale to china, and generally has been sickend and truly take by surprise by the overall "eu" appeasement of the jihadists among you, who having become disillusioned with life on welfare in an "eu" country now plan to turn all of the US into a black cloud of death.
Your attacks on the character of our nation and our people make so many of those in the US wonder what would have happened if we had simply contained Germany with Hitler ruling on the inside, while permitting the german people to dispose him. We in the US wonder where you german people would be now. Just imagine 30 years of german rule by hitler, while the US kept him away from poland, norway and all the other brave and currently forweward thinking euro countries... simply applying the german logic of dealing with saddam to the GERMAN PEOPLE to try out for a comfortable fit. We wish it could have been attempted, in the face of your current insanity.
We in the US say loudly- bring it on. To not see you, is to not be able to kill you. Thus the creation of a "war front" in Iraq- the ex-home of the regions most brutal coward and great friend of both german and french govts.
Overall a dis-engagement of germany and france as "allies" would enable the people of the US to see how well the grand standing studio-tanned showboat de villipin perform and how the vertically challenged schroeder and struck apply their loudly shouted ideals and directives. They will see nothing but the same failures over and over again. You people are acting like damn fools. More importantly you are showing your true selves after 60 years of milking the blood and money from the US( your security Nanny)tits.
This may help in explaining the german paralyzation of the 21st century and the subsequent shrinking of minds-
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/
deutchwelle from 3.25 states "Anyone who thought terrorism could be prevented through well-intentioned neutrality is at a loss to explain what happened in Djibouti" wrote Die Welt in Berlin. Well intentioned "neutrality" for germany? HA!! The new swiss nation is born for the fools!
I understand clearly now that the connection for the euro crowd is not there. Gee, why would one think that the most brutal and murderous despot in the region who shook his sword at all neighbors and threatened the world would have ever aligned himself with jihadist cowards? The burden of proof of any non-alignment with terror was upon Saddam and he failed. Saddam was chased from power and then found un-shaved in a little rat hole. Germany played no role in the toppling of the 21st century's greatest dictator, a guy one notch below the german leader Hitler. The German contribution to his fall was simply petty obstructionism.
That is fact and something that should be hard to swallow for most germans.
It seems as though no one in the "eu" sees the benefit of creating a true Front for this war to be fought upon. It is a war being fought against faceless cowards who ONLY play outside Geneva convention rules of conduct, and whom the use of citizens for human shields is exclusive to them. Without a front, the war could not be fought. If those in the "eu" think nazisim could have been defeated by containing hitler within the borders of germany, well a good round of psycho therapy is due the continent. Our kindness here in the US has been our biggest weakness in this battle. It is our biggesst weakness in dealing with the faield welfare states of the "eu" as well.
No one in the "eu" also could see the futility and hopelessness of trying to stop this tide of jihadism while saddam was still in power wrecking havoc across the region. For that I am sorry. It is not up to ANY US president to educate the german people, or the italians or the spanish people on the matter. All of you have spoken.
I thought I had heard germany asking for a seat on the UN security Council recently. I am not sure if a contribution of that magnitude counts for anything, or if achievements warrant such a seat.
We are asking that you avoid your poisonous words and your attemtps to shame the entire US, and to simply stand out of the way and cool it with the phony "better than thou" obstuctionism to a US battle in defense of it's citizens to the benefit of the entire West.
If a 2000 man troop deployment is considered by germany to be a real contribution to the war on terror, and a 15 year prison term for the murder of 15,000 people is fine with you germans- so be it.
Let history then be known.

--Which does not mean that Muslims were innocent either, but that comes second. Like how I critizise Bush for Guantanamo - of course, Guanatanmo is much better than anything back in Afghanistan or Saddam, but I hold things to _our_ moral standards.--

Worshipping

Glad to hear it, when do we read your thought on how the Spanish are treating their suspects???

4 years in solitary w/no lawyer, if I read John's posting correctly:

"On Wednesday Judge Juan del Olmo bound over two more suspects in the 3/11 bombings, who had been arrested over the weekend in the third wave of arrests. They are Moroccans named Rafa Zuher and Naima Oulad Akcha, the latter the only woman arrested so far. These people are going into solitary confinement with no contact with a lawyer. For the next four years; then they have to be tried. And the Spaniards have the gall to criticize the Americans for Guantanamo, where, by the way, the number of innocent people is, I repeat, approximately zero. One of her brothers, in prison in Salamanca for robbery and battery, is also a suspect. The other two are still awaiting arraignment."

Inside Europe: Iberian Notes - John's an ex-pat Ami.

Maybe someone from Spain can co-oborate this.

--My posting was at your blatant generalization - imagine there's a Muslim reading along.--

Crickets are chirping - silence is deafening. It's been 2-1/2 years.

Let's hear the condemnation of what happened today in Fallujah. Let's hear the support of democracy in the ME instead of we'll go at our own speed. Sorry, Arab culture's been around what, 5000 years and Islam 1400? Time to get amove on.

And if a muslim is reading this, so the much better, especially if he/she only really pays attention to European press. We're getting a pretty good handle on what makes them tick - and no, no pun intended, but neither they nor Europe has quite figured out what makes us tick. And after 200 years, and being told Europeans know our history better than we do, that's....disappointing.

For more enlightenment, read USS Clueless' latest post. We're not European.

I'm waiting for the day you tell me I argue like an American. It's a compliment. (SHHHHH, BTW, Cowboy is, too!)

Eine Leiche wurde an ein Auto gebunden, in dessen Fenster ein Bild von Scheich Ahmed Jassin hing, dem von Israel getöteten Gründer der palästinensischen Hamas-Bewegung. Die Leiche wurde dann unter dem Jubel von Passanten durch die Straßen geschleift. Die Menschen riefen "Falludscha ist der Friedhof der Amerikaner" oder "Wir opfern unser Blut für den Islam".

Den Toten werden Körperteile abgerissen. Später hängen Iraker zwei verbrannte Leichen an einer Brücke über den Euphrat und lassen sie dort baumeln. "Die Menschen von Falludscha haben einige Leichen wie geschlachtete Schafe von der alten Brücke gehängt", sagte der Bewohner Abdul Asis Mohammed. Nachdem einer der Körper wieder abgenommen wurde, schlägt ein Zwölfjähriger mit seinem Schuh auf ihn ein, und sagt: "Ich bin glücklich darüber, das zu sehen. Die Amerikaner besetzen uns und das ist das, was passieren wird."

Auszug aus
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,293456,00.html


Was sind das für Menschen, die sich so verhalten? Wäre das in Deutschland möglich? Wir müssen schon ganz genau hingucken und ehrlich zu uns sein: Ich habe so etwas nicht in mir. Ich schließe das für mich aus.

Und jetzt schauen Sie mal in die arabische Presse und lesen die Artikel. Hören Sie zu, was arabische Journalisten sagen und lesen Sie, was sie schreiben. Sprechen Sie mit Muslims. Dann machen Sie sich ein Bild!

Wir können hier ein paar Eindrücke zusammentragen, wobei ich manchmal denke, die englischen Versionen sind noch milde.

Wer fair sein will, darf nicht die Augen verschließen, der hat jetzt die Chance, sich hier im Internet selbst zu überzeugen. Machen Sie's.

What do you think: Why did they kill these women and this man? And another thought: Karzai from Afghanistan never shakes hands with women! We are unclean! How do you feel about that? Gabi

Today's Story
'LIKE A SISTER': On March 8, American Fern Holland (in center of back row) stood with Iraqi women from some of the four women's rights centers that she helped start. The next day, she, her Iraqi deputy, Salwa Ourmashi (front, no scarf), and coalition press officer Robert Zangas were assassinated.
HILARY WHITE/COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY

View the picture here on the front page:

http://www.iraq.net (only today)

@flursn
Motivation != Ursache.
Nochmal: Wie werden diese Terroristen denn zu islamistischen Fanatikern, dass sie glauben, man muss alle Ungläubigen umbringen? Einige von denen sind ja sogar in unserer Mitte gross geworden. Und bitte nicht sagen: "Wurden indoktriniert", denn das alleine ist es nicht - es gibt endlose Muslims, die nicht so sind und alleine vom Hören radikaler Meinungen werden Menschen noch nicht radikal. (Sonst wären die meisten Deutschen vermutlich Rechtsradikale, denn jeder hat sowas schon mal gehört)

@Sandy P.
So...you keep telling me it's been 2.5 years and we Europeans shall no longer stand on the sidelines against...what? What exactly would you suggest, if you had European omnipowers?

You mentioned in a generalizing that "Mosques are arms depots" for example. Right now, Mosques are being closely surveilled by law enforcement and intelligence here. What would you suggest instead for us whimpy Europeans? Sarcasm would be to ask you "Burn them down?" as arms depots surely need to go away, but I wonder at least: "Shall all Mosques be shut down?" if you had your say?

Tell me - leaving out our one differing issue of Iraq now - what exactly would you like to do differently with those millions of Muslims here than what we already do?

And not sure I understood you: you say that you _believe_ or _don't believe _in Bush's theory of "creating democracy" in the ME with a "domino-effect" via Iraq, when you look at those horrific cheering crowds in Falluja?

@Oberl

Wie werden diese Terroristen denn zu islamistischen Fanatikern, dass sie glauben, man muss alle Ungläubigen umbringen? ... Und bitte nicht sagen: "Wurden indoktriniert", denn das alleine ist es nicht - es gibt endlose Muslims, die nicht so sind und alleine vom Hören radikaler Meinungen werden Menschen noch nicht radikal.

KARMA

What do you think: Why did they kill these women and this man? And another thought: Karzai from Afghanistan never shakes hands with women! We are unclean! How do you feel about that? Gabi

The problem with Karzai is more that he is a puppet of the West, installed by bribery of war-lords and pushing them. Germany including, we all play a big charade in Afghanistan. But everybody only looks on IRaq.

Also to you: What do you suggest instead as alternative? Shall Karzai be forced by law to shake hands with women? Shall we bomb all these people who refuse women handshakes? (metaphorically speaking) We will have to accept that they want a different life-style in many ways and as long as they don't build nasty WMDs and run big terror-camps like the Taliban did, we shall be satisfied. You can not force our values completely onto them, they need to adopt them voluntarly, by us as role-models.

Was sind das für Menschen, die sich so verhalten? Wäre das in Deutschland möglich? Wir müssen schon ganz genau hingucken und ehrlich zu uns sein: Ich habe so etwas nicht in mir. Ich schließe das für mich aus.

Gabi, where were your grandparents and all your grandparents' friends/relatives in 1933-1945? In Germany, I assume, no? My lesson from Reichskristallnacht, Auschwitz and Goebbels Sportpalast-speech is a universal one: All societies and nations can turn into hateful, dehumanizing structures quicker than anyone can believe. Germans in 1930 had no idea what would be coming and considered themselves the land of Goethe, Schiller and Beethoven.

It's a fallacy to believe "we are immune and so much better, it's only evil Arabs and evil German Nazis. But never us." For all nations. One must struggle to keep humanity and justice alive and remind ourselves of our values.

Gabi, btw: I read back now in David's blog and learned now a bit what your background is. Say hi to Hubby for me please. You could've told me - nuttin wrong with that! ;-)

As we have already said, our call is the call of Islam that was revealed to Mohammed. It is a call to all mankind. We have been entrusted with good cause to follow in the footsteps of the Messenger and to communicate his message to all nations. It is an invitation that we extend to all the nations to embrace Islam, the religion that calls for justice, mercy and fraternity among all nations, not differentiating between black and white or between red and yellow except with respect to their devotedness. All people who worship Allah, not each other, are equal before Him. We are entrusted to spread this message and to extend that call to all the people. We, nonetheless, fight against their governments and all those who approve of the injustice they practice against us. We fight the governments that are bent on attacking our religion and on stealing our wealth and on hurting our feelings. And as I have mentioned before, we fight them, and those who are part of their rule are judged in the same manner. ...



Read the translation of the ABC John Miller interview (videotaped) which is further down on this page. Or, read the full interview with Bin Laden which starts with questions posed to him by his followers. This interview begins right here; it is then followed by the translation of the Miller interview with Bin Laden.



... What is the meaning of your call for Muslims to take arms against America in particular, and what is the message that you wish to send to the West in general?

The call to wage war against America was made because America has spear-headed the crusade against the Islamic nation, sending tens of thousands of its troops to the land of the two Holy Mosques over and above its meddling in its affairs and its politics, and its support of the oppressive, corrupt and tyrannical regime that is in control. These are the reasons behind the singling out of America as a target. And not exempt of responsibility are those Western regimes whose presence in the region offers support to the American troops there. We know at least one reason behind the symbolic participation of the Western forces and that is to support the Jewish and Zionist plans for expansion of what is called the Great Israel. Surely, their presence is not out of concern over their interests in the region. ... Their presence has no meaning save one and that is to offer support to the Jews in Palestine who are in need of their Christian brothers to achieve full control over the Arab Peninsula which they intend to make an important part of the so called Greater Israel. ...

Many of the Arabic as well as the Western mass media accuse you of terrorism and of supporting terrorism. What do you have to say to that?

There is an Arabic proverb that says "she accused me of having her malady, then snuck away." Besides, terrorism can be commendable and it can be reprehensible. Terrifying an innocent person and terrorizing him is objectionable and unjust, also unjustly terrorizing people is not right.

Whereas, terrorizing oppressors and criminals and thieves and robbers is necessary for the safety of people and for the protection of their property. There is no doubt in this. Every state and every civilization and culture has to resort to terrorism under certain circumstances for the purpose of abolishing tyranny and corruption. Every country in the world has its own security system and its own security forces, its own police and its own army. They are all designed to terrorize whoever even contemplates to attack that country or its citizens. The terrorism we practice is of the commendable kind for it is directed at the tyrants and the aggressors and the enemies of Allah, the tyrants, the traitors who commit acts of treason against their own countries and their own faith and their own prophet and their own nation. Terrorizing those and punishing them are necessary measures to straighten things and to make them right. Tyrants and oppressors who subject the Arab nation to aggression ought to be punished. The wrongs and the crimes committed against the Muslim nation are far greater than can be covered by this interview. America heads the list of aggressors against Muslims. The recurrence of aggression against Muslims everywhere is proof enough. For over half a century, Muslims in Palestine have been slaughtered and assaulted and robbed of their honor and of their property. Their houses have been blasted, their crops destroyed. And the strange thing is that any act on their part to avenge themselves or to lift the injustice befalling them causes great agitation in the United Nations which hastens to call for an emergency meeting only to convict the victim and to censure the wronged and the tyrannized whose children have been killed and whose crops have been destroyed and whose farms have been pulverized. ...
In today's wars, there are no morals, and it is clear that mankind has descended to the lowest degrees of decadence and oppression. They rip us of our wealth and of our resources and of our oil. Our religion is under attack. They kill and murder our brothers. They compromise our honor and our dignity and dare we utter a single word of protest against the injustice, we are called terrorists. This is compounded injustice. And the United Nations insistence to convict the victims and support the aggressors constitutes a serious precedence which shows the extent of injustice that has been allowed to take root in this land. ...

What is your relationship with the Islamic movements in various regions of the world like Chechnya and Kashmir and other Arab countries?

Cooperation for the sake of truth and righteousness is demanded from Muslims. A Muslim should do his utmost to cooperate with his fellow Muslims. But Allah says of cooperation that it is not absolute for there is cooperation to do good, and there is cooperation to commit aggression and act unjustly. A Muslim is supposed to give his fellow Muslim guidance and support. He (Allah) said "Stand by your brother be he oppressor or oppressed." When asked how were they to stand by him if he were the oppressor, He answered them, saying "by giving him guidance and counsel." It all goes to say that Muslims should cooperate with one another and should be supportive of one another, and they should promote righteousness and mercy. They should all unite in the fight against polytheism and they should pool all their resources and their energy to fight the Americans and the Zionists and those with them. They should, however, avoid side fronts and rise over the small problems for these are less detrimental. Their fight should be directed against unbelief and unbelievers. ...

We heard your message to the American government and later your message to the European governments who participated in the occupation of the Gulf. Is it possible for you to address the people of these countries?

As we have already said, our call is the call of Islam that was revealed to Mohammed. It is a call to all mankind. We have been entrusted with good cause to follow in the footsteps of the Messenger and to communicate his message to all nations. It is an invitation that we extend to all the nations to embrace Islam, the religion that calls for justice, mercy and fraternity among all nations, not differentiating between black and white or between red and yellow except with respect to their devotedness. All people who worship Allah, not each other, are equal before Him. We are entrusted to spread this message and to extend that call to all the people. We, nonetheless, fight against their governments and all those who approve of the injustice they practice against us. We fight the governments that are bent on attacking our religion and on stealing our wealth and on hurting our feelings. And as I have mentioned before, we fight them, and those who are part of their rule are judged in the same manner. ...

In your last statement, there was a strong message to the American government in particular. What message do you have for the European governments and the West in general?

Praise be Allah and prayers and peace upon Mohammed. With respect to the Western governments that participated in the attack on the land of the two Holy Mosques regarding it as ownerless, and in the siege against the Muslim people of Iraq, we have nothing new to add to the previous message. What prompted us to address the American government in particular is the fact that it is on the head of the Western and the crusading forces in their fight against Islam and against Muslims. The two explosions that took place in Riyadh and in Khobar recently were but a clear and powerful signal to the governments of the countries which willingly participated in the aggression against our countries and our lives and our sacrosanct symbols. It might be beneficial to mention that some of those countries have begun to move towards independence from the American government with respect to the enmity that it continues to show towards the Muslim people. We only hope that they will continue to move in that direction, away from the oppressive forces that are fighting against our countries. We however, differentiate between the western government and the people of the West. If the people have elected those governments in the latest elections, it is because they have fallen prey to the Western media which portray things contrary to what they really are. And while the slogans raised by those regimes call for humanity, justice, and peace, the behavior of their governments is completely the opposite. It is not enough for their people to show pain when they see our children being killed in Israeli raids launched by American planes, nor does this serve the purpose. What they ought to do is change their governments which attack our countries. The hostility that America continues to express against the Muslim people has given rise to feelings of animosity on the part of Muslims against America and against the West in general. Those feelings of animosity have produced a change in the behavior of some crushed and subdued groups who, instead of fighting the Americans inside the Muslim countries, went on to fight them inside the United States of America itself.

The Western regimes and the government of the United States of America bear the blame for what might happen. If their people do not wish to be harmed inside their very own countries, they should seek to elect governments that are truly representative of them and that can protect their interests. ...

The enmity between us and the Jews goes far back in time and is deep rooted. There is no question that war between the two of us is inevitable. For this reason it is not in the interest of Western governments to expose the interests of their people to all kinds of retaliation for almost nothing. It is hoped that people of those countries will initiate a positive move and force their governments not to act on behalf of other states and other sects. This is what we have to say and we pray to Allah to preserve the nation of Islam and to help them drive their enemies out of their land. Osama Bin Laden

Read more here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html

Beide Fahrzeuge gingen in Flammen auf. Jubelnde Menschen zerrten dann die Toten aus den Wagen. Auf Aufnahmen der Fernsehnachrichtenagentur APTN war zu sehen, wie ein Mann mit einer Eisenstange auf eine Leiche einschlug.

Eine Leiche wurde an ein Auto gebunden, in dessen Fenster ein Bild von Scheich Ahmed Jassin hing, dem von Israel getöteten Gründer der palästinensischen Hamas-Bewegung.

Die Leiche wurde dann unter dem Jubel von Passanten durch die Straßen geschleift. Die Menschen riefen „Falludscha ist der Friedhof der Amerikaner“ oder „Wir opfern unser Blut für den Islam“.

Zwei der Toten wurden von einer Brücke über den Euphrat gehängt. „Die Menschen von Falludscha haben einige Leichen wie geschlachtete Schafe von der alten Brücke gehängt“, sagte der Bewohner Abdul Asis Mohammed.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/ausland/artikel/565/29536/


Islamistic belief - Arabic people - palestinian terror - this has to do with terror and what to do against it. There is no islamophobi in Germany. There is a great fear to discriminate muslims and this fear is paralysing.

@gabi
You keep drumming again and again how bad Muslims are and how Germany is allegedly paralyzed. I think it is being understood how you feel.

Now please present what shall be done *differently* than is already being done. What shall be done with Mosques and Muslims here? Round 'em up on on the island of Helgoland?

And you are wrong about Germany - read the PEW-results in my top-posting. Germans today view Muslims far MORE unfavourable than Americans view Muslims.

And there is no "fear to discriminate" here, there is concern to treat _innocent_ Muslims inhumanely because of their religion. You know -> Auschwitz and all that.

And before I get hit on this Muslim vs. Islamists: How does one go about exactly differentiating? Is there a test for this available? Can you see it in one's eyes?

Is Karzai perhaps an Islamist, if he refuses handshakes with women?

I see a lot of hype here, but no concrete answers as to where Germany is lacking. There are a lot of measures already done right now and on the way.

Please, Oberle, let me write what I want. I call this freedom of speech. Please respect it. And you have the freedom to ignore my postings.

BTW, I did NOT write once that Muslims are bad. This is not my opinion. So please don't manipulate my text.

Don't spread such LIES about me.

@Gabi
Please, Oberle, let me write what I want. I call this freedom of speech. Please respect it. And you have the freedom to ignore my postings.

May I please also have the freedom to ask you where you believe Germany in detail fails to far (domestically), what shall be done with Islamists and how does one go about to differentiate between Muslims and Islamists (as I am afraid, "Islamist" is merely a blurry pc-label for now)? Is Karzai now an Islamist for you or not?

Don't spread such LIES about me.

No need get so defensive, gabi - I had cleared that Muslim/Islamists up a bit in my addition, as you're right. And you had just yesterday falsely attributed something wrongly to me (in the thread "Bush sicks his ..", on Bush elected/appointed). You did so by accident I am sure, like I did now, right? May happen.

But the crucial stuff for us are the questions behind all this. Like those I had asked above. Or like the debate over head-scarves: Germany had recently already had a judge with a head-scarf - though only a Laienrichterin aka Schöffin. Good or bad? Our own debate over Islam will far outshadow anything else. (which is why I found David's article here good and thought-provoking)

Nochmal: Wie werden diese Terroristen denn zu islamistischen Fanatikern, dass sie glauben, man muss alle Ungläubigen umbringen? Einige von denen sind ja sogar in unserer Mitte gross geworden. Und bitte nicht sagen: "Wurden indoktriniert", denn das alleine ist es nicht - es gibt endlose Muslims, die nicht so sind und alleine vom Hören radikaler Meinungen werden Menschen noch nicht radikal. (Sonst wären die meisten Deutschen vermutlich Rechtsradikale, denn jeder hat sowas schon mal gehört)

Lesen Sie dazu: Civilization and Its Enemies: The Next Stage of History, v.a. den Abschnitt über Fantasieideologien.

"And you had just yesterday falsely attributed something wrongly to me (in the thread "Bush sicks his ..", on Bush elected/appointed). You did so by accident I am sure, like I did now, right? May happen."

Was meinen Sie? Sprechen Sie deutlich. Ich weiß davon nichts.


Langsam habe ich das Gefühl, unser Herr Klink ist vor lauter Aufregung darüber, dass er endlich mal in seinem Leben etwas Aufmerksamkeit bekommen hat, etwas durcheinander gekommen mit den vielen Handlungssträngen hier. Kann passieren, in ein paar Jahren ist der kleine Junge vielleicht erwachsen genug, dass er nicht mehr auf smear tactics zurückgreifen muss.

Oh, ich vergass, er hat ja schon 20 Jahre Erfahrung mit Internet und net publishing projects und so.

@gabi

It's not really important, as I said!!! It would be more fruitful for me to talk about the issues/questions I had raised!!!!!!!

I am getting desperate and tired of it. Why is it that Americans here apparently bring a fruitful discourse about issues with me (though I might not agree with them and some harsh in tone, but still fruitful - will try to reply to Joe/Pato tonight), but Germans end up in useless nitpicking-quarrels with me (I am not without blame either, sure - it takes two to tango.)? It's not the first time that I found Americans to be much less uptight in discussions than us Germans - one could cite the "netcop"-culture in de.-Usenet vs. US-hierarchies or the US-conservative blogs.

Can we Germans here cease this sillyness and all chill out please? What sort of image we are giving on discussion-culture? No wonder things are going to hell in this country with all this ranting about formalities wherever you turn. Now even here with "troll" or "not troll", "said this", "no this" instead of targeting issues. And if I occasionally counter David's polemics against German media with polemics back, then don't throw a hissy fit either - it is because I happen to strongly disagree with him and he is free to delete me, if he wants his forum to be dissent-free, alright? (And to the nitpicking Germans: This is not a pun on censorship either, it's David's baby and he has control. Net-culture ring a bell? ). Jesus.

Everybody Bush-friendly German here might wanna raise their hand now so I can put you on ignore. I am tired of you for now.

But okay...you had written (look for "Oberlehrer"):

"Er wurde ja nie gewählt, sondern erwählt." Das sagte Sontag auf einem Meeting der Demokraten. Neutraler und Oberlehrer haben das auch hier verbreitet. Ich finde das peinlich und dümmlich, wenn die Demokraten und ihrer Unterstützer sich auf das Niveau unserer deutschen Bush-Gegner begeben.
Posted by: Gabi an Karl B.

Why is it that Americans here apparently bring a fruitful discourse about issues with me (though I might not agree with them and some harsh in tone, but still fruitful - will try to reply to Joe/Pato tonight), but Germans end up in useless nitpicking-quarrels with me (I am not without blame either, sure - it takes two to tango.)?

Mr Kline, once again generalizing at full throttle. But good to see that you at least partially take credit for the heat in here.

It's not the first time that I found Americans to be much less uptight in discussions than us Germans - one could cite the "netcop"-culture in de.-Usenet vs. US-hierarchies or the US-conservative blogs. (...) Net-culture ring a bell?

The more often you reach back to The Ole Internet Days the more appropriate I find my "Al Gore invented the Internet" comparison. Don't you realize you ridicule yourself?

What sort of image we are giving on discussion-culture

Oh, sure you are concerned with your image in here. Do I really need to repost all the generalizations and polemics uttered by you that I had assembled in another thread yesterday?

No wonder things are going to hell in this country with all this ranting about formalities wherever you turn.

It's called "appropriate response" to a lunatic like you who desperately tries to spoil every thread by posting ludicrous remarks with the sole purpose to start a heated discussion. And yes, there's a difference between heated discussion and controversy. The latter is appreciated very well in this blog.

And if I occasionally counter David's polemics against German media with polemics back

Oh, come on, why the sudden modesty? "Occassionally"?

it is because I happen to strongly disagree with him

And it is because we happend to strongly disagree with your tone rather than your arguments that you get the bashing that you deserve.

Everybody Bush-friendly German here might wanna raise their hand now so I can put you on ignore. I am tired of you for now.

Poor guy. Still thinking that everyone who sees radical Islam as a danger, who sympathizes with Donald Rumsfeld, who bashes our Left, who laughs at SPIEGEL ... must be a Bush-supporter then? Mr Klink, redefining one-track-mind.

---

Here's a proposal: Cool down, find yourself another handle, take a rest, come back in a few weeks, and then start posting again, but this time without the personal assaults, adulterations, generalizations, and arrogant tone, ok?

Oberle, nein, da habe ich mich nicht vertan. Sie haben nur mal wieder Ihren Namen gewechselt. Vielleicht machen Sie das ja genau aus diesem Grunde.

Also, um es festzuhalten: Versuchen Sie nicht, mir eine andere Meinung unterzuschieben, schon gar nicht, wenn es um so wichtige Themen geht.

@gabi

It is useless. I was "Oberlehrer", you know it, and you falsely attributed something to me, but never mind. It's just so useless. Keep on your nitpicking.

It's actually all symptomatic of the real problems in this country - the problem is not Anti-whatever (that is just another scapegoat used by both sides diverting from the real problems), it's very much the lack of fruitful discussion-culture and dissecting issues to death and focusing on formalities instead of talking about issues. From Sabine Christiansen (the best-rated German political talkshow - a joke) to de.* Usenet to web-forums. Compare where you like between German discussions and the rest of the world.

I can only be glad that I lived less than half of my life in this country. Makes me right wanna leave again.

I can only be glad that I lived less than half of my life in this country. Makes me right wanna leave again.

Uhm. Well, maybe you didn't hear it, but the DDR is no more. SCNR, too.

On a serious note, when you're so confident with all the in's and out's of the internet and usenet, then you might have heard already that there's a pathology common to all t*****s. It's that after the heat turns down they all "threaten" to leave the board, but do it in a way that clearly shows they expect others to hold him back. "No, no, please, don't leave us. We still love you!" But alas, feel free to introspect and come back at a later time. A knock on the head by yourself might help, too.

On an even more serious note, I hardly can remember any discussion where a participant concluded he thinks about leaving this country because he seriously fucked up ... err, I mean, because some people got him wrong and attributed all sorts of evil character to him when he deserved a moderate and thoughtful reply.

>flursn:

"Lesen Sie dazu: Civilization and Its Enemies: The Next Stage of History, v.a. den Abschnitt über Fantasieideologien."

Das ist ein ganz lustiger Hinweis, weil Harris seine Theorien / sein Erklärungsmodell der "Fantasieideologien" durchaus auch auf unsere (westliche) Gesellschaft und ihre politischen Entscheidungsprozesse anwendet: Was seiner Logik zufolge letztendlich bedeutet, das auch wir "deliberately and consciously manufactured beliefs" ausgesetzt sind, die einen gewissen "Zeitgeist" hervorrufen. Ein schlauer Mann, der Harris, und durchaus lesenswert- vieleicht sollte flursn diese Texte nochmal unter diesem Blickwinkel lesen - und sich überlegen, welchen Fantasieideologien wir in der westlichen Gesellschaft hinterherlaufen.

(Oh, and using bold letters all over the place won't help strengthen your points either, nor does it make your allegations more credible.)

Joaninho,

tatsächlich habe ich das Buch vor kurzem komplett gelesen, und ich kann Ihre Darstellung bestätigen. Harris geht es hauptsächlich nicht um Al Qaeda, sondern um die Gefahren, die Demokratien aus dem Innern drohen. Hier zielt er v.a. auf die intellektuellen Linken ab, von denen im Kern viele die Ansichten Al Qaedas teilen.

Deswegen habe ich diesen Hinweis auch im Kontext von Muslimen plaziert, die hier im Westen leben, und deswegen erklärt das Buch auch, wieso Muslime, die in der 3. Generation hier leben, trotzdem genauso anfällig sind für eine radikale Auslegung des Islam, wie es auch die linksradikalen jungen Menschen aus gutem Haus waren, die irgendwann die RAF gegründet haben.

Harris stellt überzeugend dar, dass es keinen wesentlichen Unterschied gibt in der Anfälligkeit zwischen uns Westlern (s. Ideologie des Dritten Reichs) und der der muslimischen Welt (s. Muslimbruderschaft). Man muss aber betonen, dass mit der gleichen Härte, mit der Helmut Schmidt in den 70ern gegen linksradikale Täter und Sympathisanten vorgegangen ist, auch radikale Islamisten in Deutschland bekämpft werden müssen. Leider wird hier aber zu oft - aus einem fehlgeleiteten PC-Gedanken - weggeschaut, um ja nicht als "Rassist" zu gelten. Hier muss schleunigst ein Umdenken stattfinden.

Wie Josef Joffe vor kurzem überzeugend dargelegt hat, handelt es sich bei diesem neuen Phänomen des radikalen Islam nicht um eine kurzzeitige Verwirrung von leidgeplagten Dritte-Welt-Opfern, sondern um einen Islamofaschismus, der womöglich zu erklären, aber durch nichts zu entschuldigen ist. Die europäischen Linksintellektuellen machen sich aber gerade hier schuldig, sie verklären den Kampf gegen den Westen als Freiheitskampf gegen Ausbeutung und Kapitalismus. Das ist die Kernaussage in Civilization And Its Enemies. Beide Gruppen sind gleich verblendet, und verschliessen sich beide vor der Realität. Sie suchen Zuflucht in einer Fantasieideologie und verstehen sich als Kämpfer für die Befreieung der Welt von Dekadenz und Unterdrückung. Die einen mit Worten, die anderen mit Waffen.

Oh, and I was not surprised when the only real response for my earlier genuine "Why are you here"-question came from an American. Germans so easily snap on a personal level. Hilarious. (Why I truly still love to wear the hat of "Oberlehrer" given to me by net-expert David, after he first had spotted me as "clueless")

American usually wouldn't know this - but one just needs to look at the large number of libel- and defamation- or Unterlassungs-lawsuits filed over personal net-discussions being far greater within Germany than in the US. (At least I witnessed myself over the years far more lawsuits stemming from German discussion-forums than American ones. And to German nitpickers: No, not me. I don't believe in lawsuit-happiness)

All so typical what we see, on all levels. Nitpicking, endless discussions turning circles, lawsuit-happy and reform-unwilling: Germany.

The Americans posting here are right that there are things very wrong in Germany - only it's very different things than what they assume. Anti-Americanism will be in longer perspective a rather unimportant surface-yapping (the Muslim-issue/xenophobia far bigger - and Gabi still offered no help for me to differentiate Muslims vs. Islamists and how to handle them) and sadly David treats this existing (though IMO minor) problem with a rather pathetic polemic agenda-spin towards Bush instead of dissecting clinical.

/end of rant

And as I said, I BBL to Joe/Pato to yap a bit about Bush-arrogance and why I think Iraq was a mistake in the end. ;-).

Isn't it ironic that in your very first posts you bashed the American people and defended your homeland, but now you bash your homeland and defend the American system?

Alas, good to see that finally you acknowledge that something is deeply wrong with Germany, and that we can learn a lot from the United States.

;o)

"Posted by: Oberlehrer Klink (formerly FKNAB) | März 30, 2004 04:59 nachm."


Ok, Oberle, than somebody wrote this for you.

When in germany one can easily notice the fear, paranoia and apprehension of the citizens when a head-gear wearing falaffal vendor simply walks down the street with his aquaintences.
To accomodate this you fear and to embrace those who are in the process of bringing your country to it's knees, footbaths are provided by german taxpayers for muslims to use who are brought to court. This is so they don't use the pissuer.
None of you welfare nourished fools on this site can dispute the certainty of this modern day repeat of the geramn embrace of islamists, as you share such similairly pathetic ideologies. The synagogue bombing in tunisia meant nothing to you fools as the old german citiznes burned to hell there were jewish. Your nation is nothing short of a modern day pathetic disgrace.
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/
Please allow the brave men and woman from the US who have coddled you with their security blanket, blood and money for 60 years to leave the fetid german soil. Let's see you foolish Aholes do ONE thing successfully, on your own- for the first time in your history.
deutsche welle 10.02.04 "The designers of the sophisticated court room have also taken a cue from previous trials in the old courtroom, according to news agency dpa. For instance Muslim visitors attending the trial of the radical "caliph of Cologne," Metin Kaplan, flooded the visitors’ restrooms by using the toilet basins for ritual washing. Now, the new building features a footbath for Muslims in the public lavatories."
Yes people, german sophistication in appeasement in action, paid for by the willing german.
We in the US have shed too much blood for you damn fools over the last century.
Keep this in mind you "eu" nutcases- The 9-11 cowards lived, planned, and carried out the attacks from the cozy base in europe. What is it about life in europe that makes those who come seeking your generosity and welfare spend a few years among you and then want to go out and kill all things western? Have you welcomed and charmed these newcomers to your society so much that they then lose their minds? Do you explain the sordid conditions of your cities and economies as being the fault of the jews and the US? Is it THAT which then turns them into virgin seekers so readily?
I really have to laugh at you pathetic assholes- the US re-built Germany and Japan, among others, and created the constitutions and democracies that exist there today. Don't offer you child-like explanation that you have taken care of that "thank you for assisting us" BS already. It's been just 50 short years and just look at you jackasses.


--Tell me - leaving out our one differing issue of Iraq now - what exactly would you like to do differently with those millions of Muslims here than what we already do?-

Get over the European elitist mentality, get them jobs and assimilate them. Listen to what's being said in Friday prayers. Start calling them on it.

Quit making excuses for splodydopes. Lutherans/Bhuddists don't strap explosives to other childrens' chests while promoting jihad and letting their kids off scot-free. Quit funding them. Quit apologizing for their ways. Quit expecting so little of them.

Get over the Jews and get over us. Acknowledge the fact that we happened to get a couple of things right, incorporate them into your society so you can get back to work and beat the pants off of us. And China and India 2 billion people are coming up on the outside, we're all going to be learning. And they're hungry for money.

Because if you don't and if you don't get the frogs under control, the EU will fail and you might take down a good chunk of the economic world when you do. You can work with your neighbors when you can - defense and compete/disagree with them when you can't. We have 50 states, we do it all the time. BTW, you don't need 80K pages for a constitution, KISS. - Keep it simple, stupid.

Demand more of the ME, demand more of the UN - demand all the books are opened on the Oil-for-Palaces program.

And quit massaging Iran, they're playing you.

Words are not the be-all end-all. Deeds must back up the words.

You should read this:
http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/04/0404/040104.html

Western civ has a lot of work to do and can't sit back on its' 1000 y.o. laurels and snipe at each other.

We're all you've got. And somewhere deep down inside, that might be a core issue.

Embrace the pain, spank your inner child and get over it - paraphrasing Cordy Chase of "BTVS."

We have work to do.

How's that?????

(alright, German nitpicking-instincts are taking grip of _me_ now)

@gabi wrote:"Posted by: Oberlehrer Klink (formerly FKNAB) | März 30, 2004 04:59 nachm."
Ok, Oberle, than somebody wrote this for you.

Heeeello Gabi? You there? I would be willing to admit a mistake, if I had indeed said something without remembering it, but your evidence right now is bizarre. Let's revisit. First your claim about me and then attached the full message you claim as "evidence" now.

You had written: "Er wurde ja nie gewählt, sondern erwählt." Das sagte Sontag auf einem Meeting der Demokraten. Neutraler und Oberlehrer haben das auch hier verbreitet."

And here comes my posting which you cite as evidence for your claim I had said something to the likes of "Er wurde ja nie gewählt, sondern erwählt". It is just not in there - why you even took the time to cut and paste now the time-stamp is beyond me?????? Amazing!

So lemme summarize this remarkable statement:

When Democrats like Howard Dean or Kerry critizise Bush, it is good and reasonable, but when Europeans say sometimes the exact same things on Bush, it would be "out of context" and - indirectly said - coming from apparently "unreasonable minds" of Europeans, since you stress Americans being "reasonable". How charming! :-)

Americans are also "out of context" when they critizise foreign Governments or foreign issues all the time (like your generalization of "the European left"), yet they do it - like the constant "out of context" judgement being cast on Germany here by non-Germans. And nothing wrong with that.

So what would be exactly the difference between reasonable and unreasonable? Where do YOU draw the line to justify such generalization? Americans are perhaps simply better educated, more intelligent and more free of prejudice than us backwards Europeans or the rest of planet?

Posted by: Oberlehrer Klink (formerly FKNAB) | März 30, 2004 04:59 nachm.

@Sandy P.
Get over the European elitist mentality, get them jobs and assimilate them. Listen to what's being said in Friday prayers. Start calling them on it.

Quit making excuses for splodydopes. Lutherans/Bhuddists don't strap explosives to other childrens' chests while promoting jihad and letting their kids off scot-free. Quit funding them. Quit apologizing for their ways. Quit expecting so little of them.

You are issuing nice-sounding generalities like any German politician says the same as you. The devil is in the detail, as a German phrase does. No one wants to fund terrorists or apologize for their ways - the question is who is one.

I live in a city with 150.000 muslim Turks and several ten-thousand Arabs. And many of them feel close to a deep religious belief - which might include things like mandatory head-scarves for their female family-members, but only a tiny minority will tend towards violence. When looking at biographies of past terrorists, it is next to impossible to weed out those few who walk down the wrong path - and one can not just discriminate the large amount of peaceful, yet perhaps fundamentalist Muslims.

And "quit expecting so little of them" will always be a special hurdle, as Germans will continue to think of Nazis when hearing "Germanize them by force or kick them out".

No, it's not "Germans" that will continue to think of Nazis when hearing that. It's people like you.

Have you ever talked to one of the "150.000 muslim Turks and several ten-thousand Arabs"? I have talked to quite a bunch of them, actually I have many friends who are Muslims. Being 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants, NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM leaves any doubt that they want to become the best GERMANS that you can imagine. They do want to raise the highest expectations from them, they are hungry for success, for money, for acceptance, for degrees, for participating in this society. No, the female ones don't wear any hajibs, but, yes, they all are Muslims who don't see any problem in blending their belief with our Western values.

So feel free to continue being an apologists for that tiny minority that tells us it were not possible to abandon their belief. Meanwhile, you do a huge disservice to all Muslims here in Germany who themselves feel threatend by other Muslims which simply want to preserve their medieval thinking.

Wo bleibt der Aufstand der anständigen Muslime?

(...) Es ist frappierend, wie oft im Gespräch mit liberalen Muslimen das Wort von der deutschen Leitkultur fällt. Die Migranten, die selbstbewusst ihren Platz in dieser Gesellschaft fordern, verbinden mit diesem Begriff die Hoffnung, den Laisser-faire-Multikulturalismus zu überwinden. Denn gerade in den Nischen der Gleichgültigkeit, die dieses Konzept hat wachsen lassen, so glaubt Sanem Kleff von der Gewerkschaft Erziehung und Wissenschaft, gedeiht der Fundamentalismus. Sanem Kleff, 1955 in Ankara geboren und seit über vierzig Jahren in Deutschland, leitet das Projekt „Schule ohne Rassismus“, das sich mit Ausländerfeindlichkeit und Rechtsradikalismus, aber auch mit dem wachsenden Antisemitismus der islamischen Jugendlichen auseinander setzt. Auch sie hält angesichts der terroristischen Herausforderung den Begriff der Leitkultur für unverzichtbar: „Eine Leitkultur besteht allerdings nicht aus einem fest zementierten Kanon, sondern muss zu jedem Zeitpunkt neu verhandelt werden. Und das bedeutet heute eben auch: mit uns, den Eingewanderten. Es ist auch unser Land. Gegen die Bildung von abgeschotteten Subkulturen muss die Idee einer Leitkultur für alle verteidigt werden. Das heißt aber auch: Wer den Islamismus bekämpfen will, muss den Islam anerkennen.“
(...) Der Schriftsteller Feridun Zaimoglu reagiert allergisch auf Appelle jeglicher Art, besonders aber wenn sie aus dem Establishment der deutschen Mehrheitsgesellschaft kommen. Zaimoglu, 1964 im anatolischen Bolu geboren, in München und Berlin aufgewachsen, hat nie Anerkennung als „Alibi-Ali“ (Zaimoglu) gesucht. Er ist ein hoch geschätzter Sprachkünstler unter den Schriftstellern seiner Generation: „Mich widern diese selbstgerechten Aufklärer an, die sich nur in ihrer Liberalität bestätigen wollen. Es ist billiger Populismus, irgendwelche Appelle gegen den bösen Fundamentalismus aufzusetzen, die doch niemand erreichen. Ohne mich.“
Zaimoglu ist allerdings fern davon, die Gefahr kleinzureden. Im Gegenteil: „Der Begriff Islamo-Faschismus scheint mir nach meinen Erfahrungen mit den jungen Radikalen sehr treffend. Das sind junge, kluge Kader mit einem politischen Willen. Dass die sich mit 72 Jungfrauen locken lassen, ist eine dumme Karikatur. Es fehlt hierzulande einfach das Grundwissen über diese Szene. Der politische Islam ist als Jugendbewegung überhaupt noch nicht verstanden. Und diese Bewegung ist im Wachsen, glauben Sie mir. Mit diesen Leuten muss man eine echte Auseinandersetzung führen. Distanzierungen helfen genauso wenig wie gutwilliges Dialoggequatsche. Diese jungen Leute lassen sich nicht irgendeine postmoderne Identität anhängen. Sie reagieren auf Leidenschaft, Enthusiasmus, Bekenntnis. Ich sage denen: Als orientalischer Deutscher bin ich für die deutsche Leitkultur. Ihr seid auch Deutsche, ihr müsst euch bekennen. Wer sich nicht an die Spielregeln hält, muss hart angegangen werden. Jede Kultur, auch die deutsche, hat ein Recht auf Selbstverteidigung. Dann leuchten bei denen die Augen, und wir können anfangen, ernsthaft zu reden.“
Zaimoglu ist sich der Ironie wohl bewusst, dass ausgerechnet er – der als Erfinder von „kanak attack“ zum Symbol des unassimilierten neuen Selbstbewusstseins der hiesigen Türken wurde – nun einer deutschen republikanischen Leitkultur das Wort redet. „Ich weiß natürlich, warum die Deutschen Probleme mit patriotischem Enthusiasmus haben. Vielleicht ist es ja mein Job als Orientale, sie damit zu versöhnen.“

OK - listen to what they say.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/01/umuslim.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/04/01/ixportaltop.html

Muslims cannot co-operate with local authorities against other members of the faith, the outspoken leader of an Islamic group has said.

...But Sheikh Omar told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "Muslims have a unique way of life. Co-operating with the authorities against any other Muslims, that is an act of apostasy in Islam.

"Having said that, Muslims in Britain have the right to defend themselves, but without the use of violence. They can gather together, speak with the imams.

"The imams themselves should lecture the Muslim community, not the Muslim Council of Britain who are all of them a bunch of seculars."

Sheikh Omar complained that the media was "demonising" the Muslim community in Britain, and that a "cycle of violence" has been created by both terrorists and the British and American response.

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Now, I've told you what I would do, what would you do if you were running Germany?

Let's get some ideas going, even Powell's admitted that we've had 2 different world views over the past 2 years.

Secretary of State Colin L. Powell yesterday became the first senior U.S. official to concede publicly that the United States and Europe have been pursuing different world visions for more than two years and said it was time those paths converged.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040401-123456-9250r.htm

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We've been paying attention to your frog partners, you know. Great time to go on maneouvers w/China, don't you think? During Taiwan's election???

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